Private Sellers continuing to operate as businesses

[reynardnoirrailwayana2015]

Hi all, 

I know there was another thread on this topic closed recently, but as a business seller doing things properly, I am increasingly being undercut by private sellers who are clearly businesses but have not registered as such. One seller I have seen in the same category we mostly operate in has had over 7,000 sales and has sold over 300 items in the last 12 months, and has over 400 items listed. This clearly is not someone who is operating as a business but is registered as a private seller. There are of course endless similar examples of this. 

eBay could easily police this but clearly opts not to, but should we as business sellers be able to report private accounts that are acting as businesses. Or are we all just hoping HMRC take action on these sellers (HMRC being efficient and fast moving seems unlikely).

What action should eBay be taking to protect and encourage business sellers, who seem to be at a massive disadvantage...

[james_cumbria]

In my opinion whether or not sellers choose to declare their earnings to HMRC is none of our business.  If they want to run the risk that's up to them.  What is of concern - to me at least - is that eBay operates an uneven playing field by allowing some businesses to operate under private accounts.   That's just not fair to those of us that pay thousands of pounds in fees every year.   Some of these businesses are not particularly discreet - e.g. using their limited company name as their ebay user name and their branded logo as a backdrop each of their thousands of listings - and yet eBay turns a blind eye.    

[nurse-watch-fun]

i agree! even on etsy where under HANDMADE ITEMS a company from the USA is selling branded lip balm which is not hand made but mass factory produced!  even they won't be banned from that platform because i've come to believe that for these selling platforms (which i have been a HUGE fan of for years as they do make it easy to sell and i am and will be eternally grateful) they now only want the profit margin up.  you used to be able to talk to cs and they would help you.  now unless they are reading off a screen they can't have a conversation with you and then pass you from dept to dept (or rather to the next person in the room).  ebay allow tiffany jewellery that is FAKE to be on there.  so much stuff fake but it never gets taken down.  can't believe how graphic the sex-toy listings are on here and to think a child could see them.  putting a X on bits doesn't really not show how degrading these photos are but ebay totally oblivious to them.  

[555njp]

This is a rightly a pet hate on the forum and personally I thought the new HMRC reporting rules would help clear the majority or the businesses operating on private accounts away.

What I completely failed to realise though was that the real big offenders probably are fully registered tax-wise, just taking advantage of eBay.

Therefore HMRC wont be interested, eBay are getting fees and sales so they aren't interested and, it you have enough evidence to report to trading standards, they aren't interested either.

Comment I got from TS once when reporting a particularly iffy business was "buyer beware"

Yeah, thanks for that..!

[lupo-store]

I was part of vatfraud.org and we teamed up with RAVAS (Retailers against VAT abuse Systems).  We identified mass VAT evasion by Chinese sellers in 2015 and with the help of my then MP Chris Heaton Harris, he put us in touch with the VAT team at HMRC.  We got them in a room in the treasury and basically told them how poor they were.  They took no action so we got the NAO to create a report for us and then it passed that the Public Accounts Committee who brought eBay and Amazon before them in October 2017. 

Eventually in 2021 VAT taken at source was implemented on online marketplaces and we saved the Treasury £1.3b per year (and we received a paltry £15k reward).  Everything was going ok until around Easter this year when I identified many 'private' accounts popping up with the exact same portfolio of products my Chinese competitors (who had recently dissapeared) had.  

They had effectively found a way to buy these accounts and side step VAT taken at source

[santlache_sales]

We had one post on here recently.....

6.2k worth of sales and enough stock in their line to kit out the British Army.....

A Private Seller they are clearly not, but that's what they are registered as and eBay do nothing.

[moldosgifts]

 towels don't come with a warranty, cars do.

They do if they are purchased from a business as they shouild last atl east a reasonable amount of time.

It about what you would personally do its about in generall, i know your a reasonable seller many are'nt.

But you are missreperenting that towel, like new, unused used, like new used but never opened. But was new to you but the next customer its a used towel it s that simple.

I have on right now a pair of slider my wife bought them she never wore them but they are still used i am selling as used for less than she paid for them. They are not new.

[555njp]

EBays rules regarding items sold in New Condition:

New

A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in original retail packaging (where packaging is applicable). If the item comes direct from a manufacturer, it may be delivered in non-retail packaging, such as a plain or unprinted box or plastic bag. See the seller's listing for full details.

Nearly every business will be buying from a wholesaler, probably in retail packaging. Very few will be manufacturing goods to sell brand new.

If you buy to sell via wholesale, unless you are an approved distributor, all original manufacturers warranties/guarantees become null and void. Even though the product is still unopened/sealed/unused and not yet reached an end consumer.

Therefore technically whilst these items are no longer new, providing they are unopened and unused and in original packaging, you can sell them as "New" on this platform.

My guess is that apart from the big outlets that sell direct on here, 90% of the "New" items for sale online will fall into this category; having been sourced via an auction, broker, wholesaler, etc. who will have bulk bought, end-of-line, failed deliveries and unopened returns etc., and will be brought back to market by a reseller.

Legally, business resellers do not have to offer a warranty, even if selling as 'New' but the item has to be fit for purpose and must last a 'reasonable' amount of time (the test should a case go to court).

As the customer/consumer, if you purchase an item like this and it develops a fault, the contract will be between you and the reseller, not the manufacturer.

If it's sold Privately even as New, there will be absolutely no warranty or comeback.

EBay will only cover a buyer for 30 days, so buyers need to ensure, especially for more expensive purchases, that the business seller goes beyond eBay's 30 day MBG by offering their own warranty. Otherwise the buyer is taking a chance should a fault occur after 30 days.

I guess eBay could do something similar to the refbished items catagory and force business sellers to offer a minimum 1 year warranty on any item being sold as new but I doubt that would go down well.

I note they have recently removed the catch-all "New Other" and replaced it with "Opened Never Used" but that's not technically correct for these goods either, especially if still in sealed packaging.
I'm seeing this category used a lot by resellers of tech.

[roger_roger_over_and_nowt]

Iv'e seen 4 URB's recently upgrade to businesses as it was obvious they should have done so sooner.

Iv'e also seen 2 URB's have all of their listings removed and none of their sales in past 90 days are showing at all, all i get if ,i look at any of their completed items ,is "we looked everywhere".

I guess it will take some time to weed them out.

[lupo-store]

Yes, unfortunately, it's going to take time. I think the thirst action Ebay are taking are freezing payouts. Obviously, if you are a seller, do you want to get paid so I am guessing that most will voluntarily end their listings at that stage

[howmuchtobid]

I see that train seller is back selling again, still on a private account.

[lupo-store]

On a different account? Still doing his good deed for humanity by selling trains at cost price?

[krafty-kreations]

Same account 

Also added Far cheaper on my other site ! 🙂 to the bottom of their listings

Still thinks they are doing nothing wrong!! 

[lupo-store]

Got to report him! These people are like Egyptian fish........in denial 😂

[southeast-trailers]

Makes no sense at all, why continue to punish us law/fleebay abiding sellers, its an absolute disgrace, level playing what a joke!! they told me to report said seller to HMRC and that HMRC would contact them.

[southeast-trailers]

Dont forget all the legislation that private sellers don't have to abide by! Ebay just love hating legitamate business sellers, crazy really.

[southeast-trailers]

I purchased 5 items last week for my business, all from UK based addreess's but Chinese details at the bottom, the companies flatly refused to issaue a VAT reciept even though there was a UK vat number displayed, 1 comment was the transaction was under £85000 so vat not a plicable!!! the items cost around £35 each I thought I was buying the cheapest, without a vat recipt they probably were not.

 UK HMRC beying absolutely screwed, and ebay are assisitng!!

[the_book_seekers]

You can check the Vat number on the Gov.uk site. It will tell you if the number is valid and the name and address of the business it is registered to. 

[british-ceramics-and-paintings]

I think we need to give up on this, me as much as anyone.

Ebay aren't bothered, that is crystal clear.

[nurse-watch-fun]

done that but when proven 100% to be fake ebay says it's not a problem and therefore seller is allowed to trade.  i hate ai which is the new go to thing for ebay and i uploaded photos and pictures of a watch i made.  i always use my same listing description but this time wanted to see what ai put in.  3 lines and it said "waterproof watch 1pc strap" firstly i had already input in the boxes that it was NOT waterproof and secondly i had input a watch brooch that clips onto clothing so a 1 piece strap which is for a wristwatch which i was not selling was what ai deemed my input of wording should contain.  needless to say i deleted the ai description and did, as i have done the past 14 years, my own wording so that buyers are never in doubt as to what they are purchasing and what they will receive.  i have had sales go down from £150 a week to now £20-30 a week and out of that £1.31 for postage for every item.  i still do tax returns BUT don't even make minimum wage but do it because i feel that i should and that it is proof, especially as everything is online and automated so "cash in hand" is never an option.  ebay bombard me with emails wanting me to pay MORE for better viewing.  i refuse.  when my stock runs down i have no intention of replenishing it.  twice this year so far i've been short of my £32 shop fee and after 14 years even this is getting me down.  wasn't aware that i have to pay ebay and buyers to actually purchase my items and therefore be out of pocket.  if you sell as a "private" seller then no fees are taken.  ebay has depressed me more than anything.  how can new chinese sellers who have been on the platform for barely 3 months have THOUSANDS of positive feedback when i have had about 4 feedback left in the past 6 months?  over 90% of my customers don't leave feedback.  ebay, like sky tv, is shunning the customers that made them and show no loyalty to sellers.  at the end of the day it's all about the profit for the big shots and nothing about the sellers.  at the end of the day us sellers pay a lot of money but we get absolutely nothing back except worry and stress.  we too need to pay our bills.  so many fake keyword spamming that i've complained about and still it never gets removed.  how a drinking mug can be classed as a nurse watch is beyond me or have i suddenly become dyslexic and illiterate?

[the_book_seekers]

With ebay's attitude at the moment I think it would take HMRC to tell ebay to take down an account with a fake Vat number.