could the new HMRC rules SEE A MASS EXODUS FROM E BAY

[reasonable-robert]

hi ...(quote)

From 1 January 2024, new UK digital sales reporting legislation requires eBay, and other UK digital marketplaces, to report a user’s sales over clearly defined thresholds to HMRC. 

For more information about UK digital sales reporting and what information will be shared with HMRC, visit our Help page.

Please also see guidance from HMRC for more information on when you may or may not need to pay tax for selling goods online.

It is important to be aware that this is not a new tax or a change to existing tax rules for people who use online marketplaces. 

Required UK digital sales reporting should only affect newly registered accounts in 2024 and all accounts in 2025 who pass either of the below calendar year sales thresholds on eBay: 

• Total sales on eBay is equal to or more than €2,000 (approximately £1,740) after deducting fees and commissions or taxes
• 30 or more sales transactions are completed on eBay (cancelled transactions are not included in the calculation)
• Starting from January 2025, the prior calendar year's information will be reported to HMRC each January and a copy of the reported data will be provided to sellers. We recommend that you consult HMRC or a tax advisor if you have any questions about your tax obligations. 

In order to pay tax on the goods or services you sell online, you either have to be trading or making a capital gain.

If you are just selling some unwanted possessions that have been lying around your home, such as the contents of a loft or garage, it is unlikely that you will have to pay income tax. If you sell possessions for more than you paid for them you may have to pay capital gains tax, but only if you exceed your annual allowance for such gains (currently £6,000). For more information on capital gains tax on personal possessions, see guidance from HMRC.

If you buy goods for resale, or make goods with the intention of selling them for a profit, then you are likely to be trading and will have to pay tax on your profits.

However, if your total income from trading or providing services online was less than £1,000 (before deducting expenses) in any tax year, you would not be required to inform HMRC nor pay any tax on the profits (this is due to the Trading and Miscellaneous Income Allowance). .......(unquote)

so unless you,re a freind of the tories, non dom, a member of the royal family or own a big business then the tax man will be after you.

the fall out as many people have said will be sellers looking elsewhere to sell.

facebook could only comply if you sell on the marketplace as the local sites are independantly run by individuals acting as admins so they would have to get every site to report sellers over a certain threshold which couldnt realisticly be done.

meanwhile back at e bay could this see a mass drop in members, sales and sellers both business and private walking away from e bay as 30 transactions in a year is easily achieveable in just one month.

it looks as if e bay could finally morph into the rival shopping destination to amazon its desperate to become and before the B.S clap their hands and cheer remember that when people walk away theres only those who are looking for certain items that you may sell left.

lots of competetitors selling the same thing not just here but on amazon and other sites and the chinese sellers....call it reality.

now lets have a sensible discussion without silly comments please.     

[*vyolla*]

This has pretty much been covered on many of the other threads about the forthcoming digital reporting to HMRC.

If you're a private seller listing your own personal bits and pieces, such as items from your wardrobe/loft/garage then, whilst details of your sales will be sent to HMRC, no tax should be due. 

You can check this on HMRCs website here:

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/guidance/check-non-paye-income/start/how-did-you-receive-additional-i...

[roger_roger_over_and_nowt]

https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Announcements/Information-regarding-UK-digital-sales-reporting-to-HM...

[reasonable-robert]

i know all that i,ve read it its just duplicating what i,ve put 

so now lets talk about the fall out effect whats your opinion will it affect the platform ??

[ett1954]

Whatever the fallout will be it will impact every digital sales platform from Uber, Airbnb, Amazon, eBay, and yes; Facebook.  All platforms will see some impact however only time will tell what that will be.

For info.  this is not only a UK directive; it was an agreement by the OECD and impacts more than 30 countries in an effort to identify money made from criminal activities such as drugs, people trafficking, and of course tax evasion.

I suspect the effect on sales platforms such as eBay will be felt more in the UK than many other countries, especially than EU, where most members have been applying the current laws they have much more stringently than the UK.

[vinylscot]

You're unlikely to get much response, as exisitng posts are not "duplicating what you've put."

You are duplicating what many other posters have stated since this issue came to light. The more dependable posters here will be fed up posting and re-posting their sensible opinions, having already done so on many occasions. It's all there; please take the time to look.

[*vyolla*]

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@reasonable-robert wrote:

i know all that i,ve read it its just duplicating what i,ve put 

so now lets talk about the fall out effect whats your opinion will it affect the platform ??

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After copying and pasting that large block of text you added your own bit underneath:

"so unless you,re a freind of the tories, non dom, a member of the royal family or own a big business then the tax man will be after you."

This is incorrect and I've explained why. It all hinges on whether you're just selling off your own personal items, or not.  Rishi Sunak could list some of his own personal possessions and not have to pay tax on them. 

If you've read it then you should understand that nothing has changed apart from the reporting.

Personally, I don't think that it will impact eBay in any way that will have a significant impact. A handful of private sellers who should've been operating on a business account may get a nudge letter from HMRC asking them to explain themselves, but that's about it. 

Do you think differently?

[theelench]

I think that the first thing to consider is that, in all probability, most private sellers don't read ebay announcements so won't have seen your above quote.  Nor do they read these boards with any regularity.  If that's the case, for many the first they will know about the new reporting regulations will be when ebay asks for their NINO because they've exceeded one of the thresholds.

That request will cause some sort of exodus of private sellers who have been told all their adult lives not to reveal their NINO to anyone.  Ebay will be aware of this as the US authorities went down a similar path some years ago and will have some idea of how many will refuse to hand it over 'on principal'.

For those (probably most) that do give ebay their NINO, some will stop selling when they get notification from ebay and a copy of what ebay will be sending to HMRC.  For those that still haven't read ebay's guidance or come here to seek advice, especially if their interaction with HMRC has been limited to the PAYE system, they might well stop selling at that point  --  until they see "what happens next".  So possibly another exodus?

What happens next I think is largely down to how HMRC re-acts to all their new-found information.

It's been said often and examples given, of 'Nudge Letters' that HMRC could send to sellers that raise their interest, asking if their tax position is correct.  Followed by a Self Assessment form if HMRC still has doubts after reading the reply.  Not a bad approach (IMO), but some sellers are bound to pay any tax owed and stop selling rather than have any further involvement with HMRC or Self Assessment tax forms.

If they are flooded with 'doubtful' sellers' information and take a more heavy-handed approach, like forgetting about nudge letters in an attempt to stream-line the processing and going straight to sending SA forms, particularly if accompanied by letters stressing the fines, surcharges and interest for failing to compete them.  That, I think could cause a 'mass exodus', based purely on fear of HMRC.

The sad thing about this is that although some tax evading businesses will be caught out (hopefully lots of them), many will be well prepared and have a 'plan B'.  Whereas entirely innocent private sellers will take fright at involvement with HMRC and fearful of a self-assessment system they have never used, will stop selling even though they would have no tax to pay.

[robbtyke132010]

Actually the poster of this thread does throw up an interesting thought - I wonder how many sellers will feel 100% comfortable with sharing their National Insurance number with eBay. They have your address, phone number, bank account details already - adding your NINO will be a perfect storm for cloning.

[thetimetower]

I'd say a mass exodus of sellers who werent paying tax or registered as a business but I mean i've been self employed for years and profit is the only thing the taxman cares about. If i'm making profit and its a big amount, ebay is worth it. If its a small amount, no tax will be due. It's kinda a win win for me personally because a lot of the guys undercutting me on things will just vanish or have to make new account upon new account.

[janrom2]

This is EXTREMELY bad news for buyers, especially collectors.

IMO, it will hardly affect business sellers that use private selling accounts - these people are doing it for a living and will eithor find loopholes, pay what they owe HMRC (which they may have been doing all along anyway).

Those who will stop selling will be those selling off their own collections, eithor because they won't want to give out their NINO or get a nudge letter from the taxman...most will have nothing to hide but will be afraid of the unknown or decide it's simply too much hassle.

In other words, the very people who will have collectables / rare stuff, certainly in terms of something like CDs.   Most collecctors know what their stuff is worth so won't sell to the likes of Music Magpie as they pay little.

The end result will be that rare CDs (or anything collectable) will become, in terms of market availability, even rarer and harder to find.   Very, VERY bad news for collectors wanting to buy.

[ile136yz]

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@robbtyke132010 wrote:

Actually the poster of this thread does throw up an interesting thought - I wonder how many sellers will feel 100% comfortable with sharing their National Insurance number with eBay. They have your address, phone number, bank account details already - adding your NINO will be a perfect storm for cloning.

   I feel eBay should not be the go between eBay's Sellers & HMRC as they cannot be sure they are collecting the correct NINO belonging to each eBay Seller.

   eBay Sellers had to verify their eBay Account/s by showing UK ID, why can't this be used in some way instead.  HMRC can contact the eBay Seller to sort out Self Assessments by the Sellers Name & address.

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[theelench]

I've given some thought to this as I'm a private seller (of collectables) who sells on two sites and has done for years.

I'm not totally confident that HMRC will see my selling on two sites as simply not "putting all my eggs in one basket" or that they will look at my selling history to see that I'm selling the same items on both sites.  But rather that I've got twice as many items for sale, split between the sites in an attempt to stay under the radar.

My only brush with HMRC's 'recovery team' was when I couldn't pay my Self-Employed tax bill due to being immobilised after a knee operation.  There was certainly no 'sympathy' and their only consideration was how long it would be before I could resume a part-time job so they could apply a BR tax code to start collecting my debt.  When HMRC scents money they don't do subtle or understanding, they're all "pay-up or suffer the consequences" in my experience.

To keep my selling as simple as possible I won't be giving my NINO to ebay, will stop selling here when it is requested or if I get near to the 30 item threshold.  I'll concentrate on the other site, where I have my entire 'inventory' on show and sales there will become my total sales.  At least it will make answering any questions from HMRC simpler.

At 71 and having dealt with SA for 30+ years I feel I'm entitled to a rest in retirement from keeping business records and self assessment forms, especially when I'm selling-off stuff accumulated over many years mainly to save others having to do so when I'm not around to do it.  I do resent that I'm now going to have to keep 'books' if I buy or sell anything for my hobby of collecting vintage glass, which is where this is leading, just to fend-off accusations that I might be trading.

Personally I think this is only the beginning.  Once everyone has handed over their NINO the reported sales from various sites will be automatically added together and any sales over the thresholds will just as automatically be looked-on as 'suspicious' and requiring an explanation to HMRC to avoid tax demands.

If I'm right there is bound to be a knock-on effect in collectables markets.

[theelench]

I don't want to hand-over my NINO to a US Corporation that I don't trust to keep it safe or not to misuse it. 

On another thread I asked why I couldn't use my old HMRC "UTR" instead of giving ebay my NINO.

The prevailing opinion seemed to be that HMRC had asked ebay for a TIN number and it would be simpler for ebay to apply blanket requirements of UTRs from business sellers and NINOs from private sellers   --  no exceptions.  Although that will expose private sellers to the danger of having yet more private information available to hackers, while business sellers will be shielded as their NINO will already be with HMRC so they can use their UTR.

Possibly ebay isn't too happy about it.  When the US govt. did this a few years back there was a noticeable influx of US sellers to the other site I sell on and uproar on the e-commerce blog site that can't be named here.  I would expect a similar reaction in the UK. 

[1956glyn]

I agree with your 1st sentence  100%  and we will not either.

As i have said before Ebay abused/used Glyns  personal info years ago 😞

[vintage-emporium-jedburgh]

if you have a passport , credit card, bank account, driving licence, mobile phone,

Big brother already knows where you are,  what you do ,and what you spend,

who cares about NI

[1956glyn]

This is true.......the issue is i do not trust Ebay 😞

[theelench]

As a business seller you won't be required to give ebay your NINO, you will be asked for your UTR.

If ebay reports your sales to HMRC they identify you using your UTR which HMRC  will then to link to your NINO.

Which means your NINO will be shielded from ebay and any risk that entails.  It will only be on record with HMRC, whose security I'd trust far more than ebays.

[*vyolla*]

I do get why sellers are reticent about handing over their NINO, and I 100% agree that nobody knows how HMRC will treat people selling off their collections once they receive eBay's reports in January 2025.

An (ethical) hacker once told me that nothing can be safe online, you've only got to look at the recent NHS hack to agree with that. It's okay though, because every time our personal info is handed out to criminals the big corporation responsible for its safety says "sorry', which is immensely consoling when you realise that a scammer can now be you and, in theory, sell your house from under you if you're mortgage free. 

As regards impacting eBay in any substantial way I'm not so sure though. I reckon that sellers who cease selling will mainly be those operating on a private account anyway, and the revenue they were bringing in can't be that great. They have 80% off final value fee offers and zero fees for clothing sales. 

However, those that want to get a decent price for their items will need to comply, the other online sites also require NINOS, so it's not like there's an option (unless you can sell locally for cash). Or it'll be back to boot fairs, I guess, where you don't have a national/global audience and prices received will be way lower. 

[eastern-lights]

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@theelench wrote:

I'll concentrate on the other site, where I have my entire 'inventory' on show and sales there will become my total sales.  At least it will make answering any questions from HMRC simpler.

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If Ebay will require your NINO will not the other site also require your NINO?