Scams and Abuse

Has anybody even sold an item on eBay which you know is in a condition which is like new? When the buyer receives it it's still in this condition, but the buyer wants a refund for the sake of it? The exact latest exuse is "I just don't want it". The first excuse was "I thought this was an LP and not a CD", even though I made it clear in the listing that it's a CD and even posted a picture where you could see the CD easily in its tray. They message me wanting a refund, keep changing their mind about why they want a refund and then turn very abusive and threatening via eBay messaging because I'm refusing to give him (and I know it's a him) what he wants (a refund for the sake of it).

 

As the item was a CD it's possible the buyer copied it and that's why now he doesn't need the CD anymore. That's a theory.

 

Obviously, that story is unique to me but has anybody been in a situation similar to this on eBay when they've sold an item and the buyer has received it? This has come at a time not long after my ID was stolen. I had money from my bank taken via transactions, passwords changed which have all now been reset and even my phone number they managed to change. It's all back to normal now thanks to my bank.

 

Also, the buyer is very abusive and threatening via eBay messages over this transaction and it comes around two days after my ID theft was sorted out completely by my bank.

 

I'm not saying this guy is definitely connected with my recent ID theft as I have no proof but it's a very strange coincidence.

 

I'm really trying to find out if this scammer has been the same with anyone else. I say a scammer because what he's done on eBay alone regarding wanting to return the CD for no particular straight reason with excuse changes is a scam itself.

 

I'm not naming him by giving his eBay user name for obvious reasons. OK, what he's done on eBay is bad enough and I could name him for that alone.

 

If someone here gets back to me saying that a situation very similar I would talk privately to that person asking questions before I was fairly sure it's the same guy. Then I'll name him but that will be privately and not in public on this forum... at least not instantly.

 

I would feel like I'd be protecting other eBay users though if I was so sure that he was also connected to my recent ID theft.

 

It all depends if I get anyone back saying they've had a very similar incident on here. If anybody is a fan of The Darkness I'll be relisting it if he sends it back which he says he's going to. For a refund he can whistle.

 

When I register my new card with PayPal everytime someone attempts to purchase something from me my bank are going to call me straight away first and ask if it's genuine or not. If you're a genuine customer there will be no delay at all regarding dispatching and the payment will go through completely normally.

 

Thank you

 

 

 

Message 1 of 34
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Identity theft must have been a terrifying experience, and thankfullly it seems that has been sorted for you.

 

Personally,  I do not think this can be anything to do with your awful experience,  and not a scammer ,as they would deal with far higher value goods.

 

You have just unfortunately, found a nasty bad buyer,  they are around , thankfully rare.

 

You do have a 30 day return  on your listing,  so just ask them to open a case for a straight return they are allowed to for a change of mind / don't like it reason if you accept returns.

 

On return of your item fully refund them as per eBay rules,  but through those case details only.

 

Answer no more messages,  just deal with the case,  and then block them from returning.


Block the buyer here:

 

https://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?BuyerBlockPreferences

 

 

 

Message 2 of 34
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You need to change the settings on your listed items.

As a private seller, you don't have to accept 'change of mind' returns so a buyer would not be eligible to return an item on the basis they did not like it.

If you do decided to accept returns (remember, you don't have to, you have chosen to) then you can accept returns with the buyer paying return postage.

Currently, you are showing that you accept returns on this basis:  '30 days return. Seller pays for return postage.'  In my opinion, this is leaving you as a seller open to unwarranted returns.

Most private sellers would not have such a generous returns policy.

"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
Søren Kierkegaard, Danish philosopher (1813 - 1855)
Message 3 of 34
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Thank you very much to both of you for the advice. Yes, all my log-in details have been changed for eBay, PayPal and virtually everything service I use.

 

With regards to accepting refunds I've now turned it off on that item but have still got to change some of my other listings by turning "accept returns" off on them as well.

 

If the had been damaged in the post or by accident the listing wasn't accurate I'd accept a refund straight away. I have no problems giving the money back if it's genuinely my fault. Luckily, so far I've not had to do that.

 

You should see the threatening messages I've been getting such as "you've chosen to mess with the wrong person on here!"

 

There's others as well. An agent from eBay has seen them and admitted that the messages do break eBay Terms and Conditions. However he could not say he's 100% sure I won't have to refund him if he sends the CD back.

 

I'm not refunding him. If he gets a refund it will be eBay's money. I currently don't have my new bank card registered with PayPal yet or anything connected to eBay. So no one can access my money.

 

My bank have told me that everytime PayPal attempts to take money out of my new account they will call me instantly and ask me if I agree with the transaction or not, so I'm not worried about them forcing me.

 

As I haven't actually accused him of being behind a hack or anything else like that.

 

The item now says Awaiting Return Dispatch. I guess it means he is due to post it back but hasn't yet.

 

I'll keep you updated.

 

Thanks again to both of you for answering with good advice.

 

 

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You haven't told us which CD it was. Unless it was the Chris de Burgh box set, the most it could have cost, from your other sales, is £15.00.

 

Is that worth losing your eBay account over? The refund will come from your funds, one way or another. Do you want debt collectors turning up at your door for £15? Do you want to trash your credit rating?

 

OK, the buyer didn't need to become abusive, but your listing clearly stated (as your active listings still do), that you would accept returns within 30 days. Was the buyer immediately abusive, or did he just become so after you denied him his rights?

 

Think twice about changing your return terms. If you don't allow change of mind returns, you can expect unhappy buyers to claim their item is damaged (or even damage it themselves) in order to obtain a refund. You can not refuse a return for an item "significantly not as described".

 

You need to refund this buyer when you receive the CD back (and re-think your attitude).

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Excuse me. I went through hell last week trying to get my money back that was stolen so I don't need this hassle. He hasn't described the CD as significantly not as described and if he damaged it now it would be so obvious. I don't think you realise that I've got a chatlogue with from two nights ago which had nothing but threats and abusive talk. It lasted an hour. He has the attitude that he's big and can get anything he wants if he acts like this, plus I already have a phone call to eBay where the agent apologised and admitted straight away that he'd definitely broken eBay's Terms and Conditions. I believe all their calls are recorded like with most companies now.

 

You don't know the full story. I've never said that he wants a refund because the item isn't as described like you just said. He's changed his reason for wanting a refund three times and none of them have been valid. The first excuse is saying he thought it was an LP and not a CD. I stated it was a CD twice and one of the photos I uploaded to the listing actually shows the CD in it's tray. Would you mistake that for an LP?

 

His second reason was that it's a picture disc, which are like giant CDs the size of vinyl. I never said it was a picture disk either because it's not one. He changed the story when I clearly pointed out that the picture shows clearly it's a CD. I said you can't look at that picture and think it's an LP. His third excuse for wanting a refund was "I've changed my mind". You have to remember that CDs can be copied to a hard drive. How do I know he hasn't copied it and has now got the album and now just doesn't need the CD. I'm not saying that definitely happened but it's a possibility, especially with someone like him who can't make their mind up as to why they don't want the CD anymore.

 

I would have no trouble at all refunding someone ASAP as soon as I receive the item back if it was definitely damaged in the post or I had accidentally put something in the listing that doesn't match the item and I've sold, something that was slightly different on how it's described such as saying a hi-fi I've sold where I've listed some details of features it has when it actually doesn't have those features.

 

In future ask more about the situation before making up your mind that he's right and I'm wrong.

BTW debt collectors don't visit houses to retrieve £15. And no one tells me to re-think my attitude as I will just laugh in your face.

 

This is a dodgy transaction by someone who wants a refund because they just don't like it. For this reason he will not get a penny out of me. Currently eBay don't have access to any payment by me as I use PayPal and have yet to register my new bank card with it.

 

Nice talking!!

 

 

 

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Unless I'm missing something here, it looks like you have 30 days returns on your listings so your buyer has every right to request a  return.

Is there something I have missed because you say you don't think your buyer's reason for retuning is a valid one.

Having a return policy means you will accept returns for any reason, not just SNAD reasons so I'm not sure why you aren't just accepting the return?

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Message 7 of 34
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When I first saw that I presumed it meant if the item was wrong. Also this is no ordinary transaction. eBay have told me he's broken his terms and conditions by sending me an hour of threatening abuse. And you think I'm going to refund somebody who speaks to me like that and can't decide why he wants a refund?

 

Maybe I shouldn't of joined this forum as it's basically everybody sticking their noses in and telling me what to do, and not in a pleasant way either, although obviously not as bad as that seller and the way he's spoken to me.

 

I didn't join this forum expecting me to be a complete idiot and take that abuse and still refund him.

 

eBay don't take all their policies seriously. He's broken them and the eBay agent said he was concerned with his messages to me, but that was two nights ago and I've heard nothing.

Message 8 of 34
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I suggest you read everything I've put on this forum. That's more than
enough for you to understand. You're talking like this is your average
transaction, when it's anything but.

If you can speak to the agents ask them to look it up and what they've
decided to do.
Message 9 of 34
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@andresmit_426   You haven't answered an  important question I asked in my earlier post.

 

Did the buyer become abusive before or after you denied him his legal rights?

 

...and believe me, eBay will instruct debt collectors for £15, although it will be significantly more, once they add on their charges. Don't be silly here. Grit your teeth, refund the guy when the CD comes back, and move on. You don't have a leg to stand on. 

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Thank you, I started changing it for all items listed but i can only do it
on my laptop for some reason. I will be going on there in a minute. I will
make sure it's changed for every single item listed.

However, regarding this abuse and threatening buyer I will not be changing
my mind.

Thanks for reminding me though that I need to get my laptop out and sort
that out for all items I've got listed.
Message 11 of 34
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@andresmit_426 wrote:

When I first saw that I presumed it meant if the item was wrong.


All sellers have to accept returns opened for "item not as described" (INAD) reasons; there is no opt-out. Private sellers can opt-out of accepting remorse returns but your listings show that you do accept them. Note that on your Fleetwood Mac - Rumours listing you're not only offering to accept a return but you're offering to do so at your own expense; i.e. you're offering buyers a free return on that item.  

 

The return process itself is automated; if your buyer has opened a return case it will be handled in line with the return policy that was in effect on the listing. Once the buyer uploads a return label that's it...three days after it shows the item as being delivered back to you they will be refunded if you don't volunteer a refund yourself or report a problem.

 

 


@andresmit_426 wrote:

 

eBay don't take all their policies seriously. He's broken them and the eBay agent said he was concerned with his messages to me, but that was two nights ago and I've heard nothing.


eBay's customer service agents are notorious for telling users what they want to hear in order to get them off the line as quickly as possible and chalk up yet another 5 star rating.

 

 


@andresmit_426 wrote:

BTW debt collectors don't visit houses to retrieve £15


The one thing eBay doesn't tolerate is people owing them money. Even if a DCA doesn't come knocking you can guarantee your eBay account will be permanently suspended. And it might not only be your account(s) eBay chooses to sanction in this way.

Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Message 12 of 34
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Your buyer is completely wrong to have become abusive. That is unwarranted. But unfortunately you misunderstood what the Returns Accepted setting means. Whatever your returns policy, all buyers have the right to return an item if it is not as described or damaged. The Returns Accepted setting means that you accept change of mind returns which means a return for absolutely any reason whether it's because the buyer just didn't like it or thought it was an LP or any other reason. As you mistakenly put a 30-day returns setting on the listing, the buyer does have the right to return even though they have now been abusive. In terms of ebay6 policy, you're both in the wrong - you for refusing their right to return and them for being abusive.

 

In this instance, the sensible thing would be to accept the buyer's valid return as ebay will force it one way or another anyway even if they also sanction the buyer for the abusive.

 

Going forward, you need to do a bulk edit of all your listings to change your returns policy to Not Accepted - if that's what you really want. This means that buyers will still be able to return faulty or damaged items but not change of mind. You do run the risk of buyers inventing not as described reasons when you have no returns accepted though so that's worth considering.

 

Regarding the buyer thinking it was an LP, I can see how this has happened, especially if the buyer was buying on their phone. Many buyers don't thoroughly read item descriptions or even look at all the photos. They certainly don't look at the category. Stupid but that's the way it is. They buy purely based on the title and the first photo. In this respect, your listing is perfect for a misunderstanding. The title doesn't say whether it's a CD or an LP. The first picture shows a gatefold card sleeve with no sense of scale as to whether it's a gatefold LP cover or a CD digipak. When a CD has a card sleeve or digipak rather than a standard jewel case, they can easily be mistaken for an LP cover in a photo. If the buyer hasn't looked closely at your second photo then it'seasy to think that's just the inside of a gatefold as the disc is a picture disc rather than silver so it blends in with the cover artwork and the booklet is obscuring the centre of the disc which would have made it more easily noticeable as a CD.

 

When you set up your listing, you really have to make it idiot proof and think like a buyer in a hurry and on a mobile. In this instance, I can see how the buyer made the mistake of thinking it was an LP. At the end of the day, you are where you are. The buyer shouldn't have been abusive and you should have accepted the return. The best you can do now is to get the CD back, refund, move on and edit your current listings to add "CD" to the title to try and minimise the chances of a repeat.

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I've explained the whole situation if you've read all my comments. I do not owe eBay any money.

 

I've been told by eBay that they've broken eBay's Terms and Conditions just by talking to me the way he did. They even apologised to me for it even though they didn't have to.

 

The reason for wanting to return this item has changed three times as it is. This is no ordinary transaction like you seem to think it is.

 

After all that you think I should give his money back to him? 

If he sends back the CD that's his choice. It doesn't change anything I've just mentioned.

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You're now getting very silly indeed.

 

You will be refunding the buyer, whether you like it or not. The way you set up that listing allowed the buyer to return the item for any reason at all, including a simple change of mind.

 

You still haven't clarified whether the buyer became abusive BEFORE or AFTER you attempted to deny him his legal rights. I think we know the answer to that.

 

Also, you still have 14 items listed for sale.  If, as you say, you have no bank details registered with eBay, how do you think you're going to be paid, if any of them sell?

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I will give people access to be able to pay me if I sell something. I'm not
stupid.

Don't tell me what or who'll I'll be paying. I have said time and time
again that due to him breaking eBay's Terms and Conditions by speaking to
me like a piece of dirt for no reason whatsoever. At the beginning I
would've refunded him but I was stopped after he became abusive and changed
his mind as to why he wants to return the CD.

eBay know all of this and even apologised to me for his appalling
behaviour. This is why I will not refund for this item. Because I realised
this was no ordinary transaction or return. OK!
Message 16 of 34
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If he has opened a return case with ebay he is guaranteed a full refund with or without him returning the item according to ebay's terms and conditions I'm afraid.

I get that this guy is a rude obnoxious pita but he is also within his rights wanting a return.

 

How did it get this far? Just stop messaging him and communicate only through the case, when you get the item back, refund him.

Your buyer can escalate his case after 3 days and ebay will refund him anyway and then they will come after you for the money.

You say you will not give him any money. Unfortunately ebay will remove the £15 from your bank account and give it to him whether you like it or not.

You say they don't have access? They certainly do otherwise you wouldn't be able to sell on here.

If you close your bank account they will send a representative to your home to recover the debt but it will be more than £15 by that time as they'll have paid someone to recover the debt. You will lose your credit rating and all for £15.

Please don't believe everything ebay tells you. Most of the time they will agree with you and tell you what you want to hear to get you off the line, and they aren't familiar with their own policies so you would be far wiser to accept the advice given to you here.

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@andresmit_426 wrote:

I've explained the whole situation if you've read all my comments. I do not owe eBay any money.

 

I've been told by eBay that they've broken eBay's Terms and Conditions just by talking to me the way he did. They even apologised to me for it even though they didn't have to.

 

The reason for wanting to return this item has changed three times as it is. This is no ordinary transaction like you seem to think it is.

 

After all that you think I should give his money back to him? 

If he sends back the CD that's his choice. It doesn't change anything I've just mentioned.


There's nothing special or out of the ordinary about the buyer or the transaction. It's just an ordinary transaction that's being returned - it happens all the time. As you had 30 day returns accepted, the buyer wasn't even obliged to give you a reason or communicate with you at all other than starting ebay's return process and ticking "changed my mind". It really doesn't matter why he wants to return it as he's totally within his rights to do so.

 

If he only became abusive after you'd told him he couldn't return it then it's not acceptable but it is, to some extent, understandable. If he goes ahead and returns it then you will be refunding him one way or another. You can't win this as you are legally obliged to accept a return for any reason so you'd be better off accepting that fact.

 

As others have already explained, ebay CS are well known for agreeing and saying whatever you want to hear to get rid of you and on to the next person. It's often completely wrong. What do you think ebay will tell the buyer if he contacts them about you? They'll give him the same, "There, there, poor you," treatment that you got and will tell him to stop communicating with you and just continue with the official return procedure to get his refund. They won't tell him off for being abusive just as they didn't tell you off for refusing him the legal rights that you gave him. Anything to get rid of people with the least amount of hassle.

 

As I said in my last post, I can see exactly how the buyer thought it was an LP if that was the real reason for return. They didn't read the description or study the photos in enough detail to realise that it was a CD. Their bad. For your part, you didn't state whether it was a CD or an LP in the title which is asking for trouble in this age of buying from mobiles. You also didn't read up on how ebay works before listing items for sale so don't understand what a seller's returns policy covers or how ebay's return process works. Your bad.

 

What has happened now is that you've locked horns with a buyer who is no more in the wrong (or right) than you. You've both broken ebay's policies and have reached an angry and ridiculous deadlock over a £15 item. People make mistakes, that's life. Both you and the buyer have made mistakes in this transaction. Neither of you are blameless.

 

Just refund on return and move on. If you want to avoid a recurrence, update your titles and change your returns policy.

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Like I said, virtually from the beginning I had suspicions this wasn't genuine and this became more obvious as time went on. I suffered an hour of abuse just because I told him I made it clear a few times that it's a CD, not an LP. I also pointed out that in one of the photos I uploaded you could see the CD sitting in it's tray.

 

Then he said it looked like a picture disk. I suppose he said that because it sort of did look more like a picture disk than a vinyl record. The abuse carried on and the reason for not wanting the CD because of that changed again. I can't even remember why now but if I check that chatlogue I'll see it. eBay have access to it as well. When I called eBay about this after spending 30 minutes working out how you get to talk to a real person instead of a robot, I told him all of this plus probably more. He checked the chatlogue straight away and said that he'd broken eBay Terms and Conditions just by the way he handled that conversation. Then he even apologised to me for me having to go through all this abuse.

 

Then he said he'd start a claim. You have to remember this is more than just a minor problem. To answer what you said, he is more than just out of the ordinary. You haven't viewed what I've viewed.

 

When he first asked for a refund it was the day before my bank said spent a great deal of time putting a transactions back in order and refunding me for what was stolen. About 5 days before I was the victim of identity theft. Part of this is changing all your passwords and in my case changing my phone number. This has all been rectified but a had a lot of emails from eBay that I had missed asking me if it was me who logged into my own eBay account on... whatever date it was, the time it happened and where I was.

 

Someone in Ilford near the Greater London/Essex border had hacked my eBay account. I've kept all these emails. I'm not saying the buyer was involved at all in that but because it happened just after everything had been put back to normal I thought it was a very big coincidence seeing as no one has ever asked me for a refund in all the 10+ years I've been a seller on here. I am a buyer as well. This added to my suspicion especially when it became obvious that this was no ordinary eBay buyer and he wanted a refund because of three different things at different times. Once I had explained that one of his particular reasons for wanting a refund was impossible and that it was something I could easily prove was impossible he'd change his mind again on the reason why. This would also be very invalid and impossible. Again I forgot what the other two were but again I can just check the chatlogue. I believe at the time of his last excuse he just said "I don't want it no more".

 

Of course, you do realise you can easily copy CDs to a hard drive or any digital device that can play music. This is why HMV will only refund you by giving you another copy of the CD you bought. If they were out of stock they would organise a replacement to be sent to their address. I know this as it happened to me once, but I wanted the CD and had no plans to copy it. This was only a year a half ago and was the Worthing branch.

Again, I'm not accusing him of doing this but you have to think about it especially when refunding a CD. If I had asked HMV for a refund just because I don't want it anymore I wonder what they would say?

 

One last thing and this is the honest truth and I'm willing to swear on my parents lives I'm telling the truth (and yes they're both still alive... just about). Looking on my eBay you'll see the CD that this guy is sending back and wants the refund to has been relisted on my page. I'm not bothered about this at all but I didn't relist it. It was still on my account and eBay (probably a robot) relisted it. I personally wouldn't of done this just yet, but I don't mind it being done. Also, at first I believed the subject about returns was all about if you had a genuine problem, such as an item damaged in the post or an item that someone brought where it had accidentally put a piece of information about something this item can do in the listing which it actually can't do.

 

The way to find out how to change your policy on returns isn't in the most easiest place to find when revising your listing and isn't actually market at all. I eventually found out today how to do it buy clicking that symbol on the top right-hand side. I just clicked anything like this until I found it. Another thing is you can't change this when using your Android phone (at least I can't). You can find where the option is to turn refunds off, and even change it but on the phone it will not register and when you go and view the items you think you've changed it still says "returns available" or however it's actually worded on the listing. This could be viewing it on my phone and laptop. However, if I use my laptop to change it, it registers instantly. It then has disappeared on the listing whether I'm viewing it on the phone or laptop.

 

Going right back to the beginning he will not be receiving a refund from me for reasons already stated. If he is refunded the money must've come from eBay themselves, not from myself. Currently due to my recent problem with ID theft I obviously have a new bank card. This has yet to be registered with PayPal which means eBay as well. If I sell an item I will instantly get a notification. I will then register my new card on PayPal. My bank are going to call me straight away if PayPal try and take any money. If it's genuinely through a sale that's just happened I'll give it the go ahead. I will know it's the buyer going by the amount paid in. They said they will do this everytime with PayPal regardless of whether someone is trying to give me money or wants to take money.

 

They're doing this for two other services as well unrelated to eBay or PayPal.

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A buyer being abusive doesnt lose them their legal rights.

Also even if you refuse returns all the buyer will do is an item not as described claim which they will win regardless.

 

Stop taking abuse to heart and just refund them before ebay do and they get to keep the item too.

 

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