First time having someone request a refund…dodgy?

[tytherley12]

Hi, I sold our Dual Fuel Rangemaster oven today.  It was collected by the purchaser this morning. The purchaser has, this evening, requested a refund claiming that the item isn’t as described.  The purchaser wanted the ovens to be electric, but one is gas and one is electric. I even put in the listing that the main oven is gas, because I wanted to advertise that it has been barely used. Photo of listing below. I also showed her husband which oven compartment was gas when he collected it.  In her messages this evening she has accused me of editing the listing which I haven’t!  To add, she had sent a question before she placed a bid, which I didn’t get around to replying to, which said “Hi can I ask is the oven electric or gas just in the listing it says gas oven but it says dual fuel” so she clearly did know it had a gas oven. Is it likely that EBay will rule in her favour do you think? I don’t really sell on eBay and this lady clearly knows eBay inside and out judging by the content of her messages. It’s really thrown me.  I’ve spoken to eBay and the eBay lady basically said the buyer can do what it likes. Surely this can’t be right? Thanks for reading and any advice. 

[tytherley12]

In an appeal process does it help me if I show I’ve tried to resolve? Should I reply to the buyer again and try and find a solution or should I just wait it out? 

[moonlight-rhapsody]

Did you ask Ireland why they're supporting the buyer when the item is undeniably as described in the listing, bearing in mind that ebay's own policy doesn't allow a false claim of Not As Described, and if so, what did they say?

[podlingsmum2007]

If it was myself in this situation I would accept the return, hire a van, drive it myself and go and collect it. The alternative is that ebay might refund the buyer and tell them they don't have to facilitate it being returned.

[melliferam]

I’m not sure you would Podlingsmum.  It’s 90cm wide and 90cm high and weighs 150kg.  Not something you can just chuck in the back of a van.  I have no idea how the husband managed it by himself, it’s the sort of challenge you set for the world’s strongest man.  You would need at least two strong blokes to get that in a van, so not an easy thing to just collect.  I can see how it feels to the seller.  They did everything right but are having to take the pain for someone who is doing everything wrong.  And tbh I don’t think this was an honest mistake.  If it was that important not to have gas how come it will be fine if you get it half price.  And I can see it is a normally expensive item, so they got it at a very good price anyway.   I honestly feel eBay is becoming a minefield and the scammers seem to win out every time.

[*vyolla*]

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@moonlight-rhapsody wrote:

"I've known of a few appeals over the years, and would say that it mainly hinges on the appellant's ability to put together a short, clear and very precise argument as to why they should win. Those that feel that they have to waffle on and drop cards in that they think should be played (such as the stress it's caused and mental health etc) dilute the argument, they don't win it. If there are three precise reasons why the appellant should win, then they just need three factual bullet point sentences."

Yes, I'd agree.  Just to be clear though, if you could clarify:

- does the seller have to collect the cooker first, before she can put in an appeal, or can she try to speak to someone in Ireland in the morning to see if they will rule in her favour, so that she doesn't have to collect it.

The appeal can only take place if eBay have made a decision i.e. seller refuses to accept the return and provides reasons why and the buyer escalates it to ask eBay to step in (after 3 business days). eBay then will refund the buyer and the buyer will also have the item. 

The seller then can appeal the decision and their argument is looked at by a human, but it's a big risk. If you think about the financial aspect of it, if the buyer has been refunded by the seller, and the seller goes on to win an appeal then eBay would need to give the seller the money, it's a rare occasion when they'll take a refund back from the buyer. So, eBay would be losing a reasonable amount of money. It would have to be a really good argument. The OP has some good reasons as to why they shouldn't lose their money, but that AI listing description and one line of text might be viewed as a bit ambiguous by somebody looking for an out. 

I believe that the OP has already spoken with numerous eBay CS reps including one from Ireland, who have all said the same thing - get the item back and refund. 

-  would she only complain to ecukcomplaints@ebay.com if she loses her money and/or the oven, rather than immediately?

It doesn't matter, in over 20 years I've never seen anything positive come from a complaint, the OP will just be directed to the eBay User Agreement.

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[podlingsmum2007]

I presumed it was possible as the buyers husband had collected it. 

[xyz307xyz]

Another quote below to refer to in conversations with CS or (briefly) in the case. Have you reported the buyer already?

"If the buyer is asking to return the item because it's damaged, faulty, or didn't match your listing description, then you need to accept the return. If they've opened the return for another reason, for instance if they ordered the wrong item or changed their mind, then you aren't required to accept the return – however, where possible we always suggest providing a great customer experience."

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/handle-return-request-seller?id=4115

[sheba-knows-best]

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@melliferam wrote:

I’m not sure you would Podlingsmum.  It’s 90cm wide and 90cm high and weighs 150kg.  Not something you can just chuck in the back of a van.  I have no idea how the husband managed it by himself, it’s the sort of challenge you set for the world’s strongest man.  You would need at least two strong blokes to get that in a van, so not an easy thing to just collect.  I can see how it feels to the seller.  They did everything right but are having to take the pain for someone who is doing everything wrong.  And tbh I don’t think this was an honest mistake.  If it was that important not to have gas how come it will be fine if you get it half price.  And I can see it is a normally expensive item, so they got it at a very good price anyway.   I honestly feel eBay is becoming a minefield and the scammers seem to win out every time.

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I'm genuinely not 100% sure about my solution - and I feel for the seller - but my sense is that the buyer was cavalier rather than fraudulent (and is now becoming scammer-like, as she's upset/feels stupid at the cost of something she doesn't want and didn't expect). But why else would she have messaged to ask about the gas unless confused? I hold my hands up. I had no idea what dual fuel was. If you'd asked me to guess - I would have said both ovens working with both fuels - and then started thinking about the logistics of that. And as to why half price would help... well, I like a gas hob, but if you told me I had to have electric to solve a problem, I might come round to it and half price would definitely help.

The point is, the seller is going to lose at least £80 on a return, with a heap of hassle, and what if she sells it again and this time the buyer says its not working?

Better to settle for a loss of £230 (rather than £80) and make herself feel better by telling herself it was a stupid, thoughtless person (who reckoned she'd just return if it wasn't right)  rather than a deliberate scam.

BUT try ebay first. Get the right person and you could get a goodwill gesture refund. A decent CS will see the OP shouldn't have to lose out.

[*vyolla*]

I don't understand why a refund of £230 would suddenly make it the right cooker though?

[moonlight-rhapsody]

"But why else would she have messaged to ask about the gas unless confused?"

But if she was confused, and the seller didn't clarify, why would a reasonable person go ahead with the purchase?  The description is quite clear - it even states "main gas oven" - and the husband couldn't have had any confusion when he inspected it.  In the unlikely event that they had expected something different, a reasonable person would have rejected it when he inspected it and asked for a refund instead of taking it away.

[vinylscot]

Like Sheba above, I feel the buyer probably got a little excited, thought she saw a great deal, and jumped at it, only realising the error when the husband brought it back home. (I'm a man, and I might not be able to tell the difference between a gas oven and an electric one, on just a quick view. He was probably only checking it wasn't wrecked.) Rather than admitting to that, and returning it themselves, which would be the decent thing to do morally, they have decided to do what is "best" for themselves, however morally questionable that may be. The £230 part refund request could well be a red herring. If they don't want the item, perhaps they think they can sell it for a profit.

I do think the OP failing to collect it, and pinning all his/her hopes on the appeal, is probably too much of a risk to take.

However, I also reckon the appeal is doomed to fail. Once a human becomes involved, they will see that the item is back with the seller, so why would they accept the appeal, under these circumstances. I'm sure they will find some technical reason to reject it.

It's a bit of a Catch-22. Risk losing everything, or collect the item to reduce that risk, but almost certainly lose the cost of collection. I'd probably go and collect it, and just write it off to experience.

[sheba-knows-best]

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@moonlight-rhapsody wrote:

"But why else would she have messaged to ask about the gas unless confused?"

But if she was confused, and the seller didn't clarify, why would a reasonable person go ahead with the purchase?  The description is quite clear - it even states "main gas oven" - and the husband couldn't have had any confusion when he inspected it.  In the unlikely event that they had expected something different, a reasonable person would have rejected it when he inspected it and asked for a refund instead of taking it away.

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She's not a reasonable person. She's stupid and in a rush to get her claws into an aspirational cooker at a knock down price. And the husband just nodded and smiled for a quiet life. He didn't even know what his Mrs wanted. He hasn't been in the kitchen for years.

I suppose, thinking about it, my point isn't to focus on the buyer - but to stop fighting a scammer, when we simply cannot know.

A story: I once sold an immaculate sheepskin for a couple of hundred to a woman who then wanted to return it as filthy and smelly. I was bemused and referred her to the photos. She was outraged I should put her to the inconvenience of a return when I'd already sold such rubbish by clever photos. To cut a long story short, a few days later, after lots of messages, her husband messaged from the same user name to apologise. He said he'd bought the coat as a gift, she'd worn it to an event, someone else had picked up the wrong coat (or nicked it), and she'd been too frightened to tell him, so had told him she had to return it as it didn't fit. Honestly you couldn't make it up.

The point is, the OP has to make a decision based on putting this to bed as least-painfully as possible. So if ebay wont do a goodwill refund, the partial discount feels to me like the least awful alternative.

[johnwash1]

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@podlingsmum2007 wrote:

If it was myself in this situation I would accept the return, hire a van, drive it myself and go and collect it. The alternative is that ebay might refund the buyer and tell them they don't have to facilitate it being returned.

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Absolutely.  I certainly wouldn't be relying on some care-nothing courier to turn up at the buyer's house, ring the bell once and p*** off.  I'd agree with the buyer the day for collection and drive however far it takes (can't be thousands of miles, the buyer's husband did the journey).

My wife and I have a Rangemaster 90, ours is LPG hob and both ovens electric.  We've had it 6+ years, very pleased with it and it cost over £1,000.  I doubt it would fit in my car.  @tytherley12  What vehicle did the buyer use?  If it means hiring a van, is this where the £80 comes in, a hire fee?

To be frank, I'm horrified that someone is so strapped they can't come up with £80 to recover something worth hundreds, but I'll take that at face value.  I'm so outraged by this story that, if it's what it takes to get this recovery done, I'll throw a tenner in the pot towards it.  Find 7 others like me and you've got the show on the road.

Do NOT spend time on thinking about appeals to ombudswotsits, journalists etc, except that you must keep a clear log of the events and messages in case they're needed later.  Right now you need to be laser focussed on the need to meet ebay's rather short timescale for handling a not-as-described case, else the buyer will be refunded automatically from your funds and it will make the whole business harder to sort out.

[4_bathrooms]

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@xyz307xyz wrote:

Another quote below to refer to in conversations with CS or (briefly) in the case. Have you reported the buyer already?

"If the buyer is asking to return the item because it's damaged, faulty, or didn't match your listing description, then you need to accept the return. If they've opened the return for another reason, for instance if they ordered the wrong item or changed their mind, then you aren't required to accept the return – however, where possible we always suggest providing a great customer experience."

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/handle-return-request-seller?id=4115

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Everything you have posted is dependent upon the return reason that was selected by the buyer. If a buyer selects an "item not as described" reason - such as "Doesn't match description or photos" - the return is automatically accepted. If the buyer selects a remorse reason such as "Ordered the wrong item", "Changed my mind", "Doesn't fit" etc. and the seller has chosen not to accept returns for remorse reasons the seller can decline the request.

eBay do not arbitrate during the initial INAD returns process. The seller's options are to upload a return label, issue a full refund or offer a partial refund. If the seller does none of those things they are all but guaranteed to lose the item and the money.    

[edwardian-dreams]

Shouldn’t the buyer have to prove why an item is not as described? otherwise they get a refund for whatever reason they like even if fraudulently 

[w79805]

The problem here is that you think ebay cares enough to enforce their own policy in favour of a seller

[moonlight-rhapsody]

"I'm so outraged by this story that, if it's what it takes to get this recovery done, I'll throw a tenner in the pot towards it. Find 7 others like me and you've got the show on the road."

I know how I'd feel if this happened to me, so I'm up for that too.  How would it work - if Ty's got a Paypal account, could we pay into that?  Would ebay allow it, I certainly hope so.

I don't know which is the most outrageous - the buyer for trying it on, or ebay for allowing it.

[johnwash1]

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@moonlight-rhapsody wrote:

"I'm so outraged by this story that, if it's what it takes to get this recovery done, I'll throw a tenner in the pot towards it. Find 7 others like me and you've got the show on the road."

I know how I'd feel if this happened to me, so I'm up for that too.  How would it work - if Ty's got a Paypal account, could we pay into that?  Would ebay allow it, I certainly hope so.

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If we choose to give someone a donation it has absolutely nothing to do with ebay.  The only difficulty initially is getting Ty's email, because ebay would see that as being the start of a potential off-site sale, and they REALLY don't like that.  I once got a 7-day ban for naively giving my address to someone who wanted to come and have a look at my 99p item to see if it would be suitable.  Yes, really, they thought they might lose commission on 99p.

[moonlight-rhapsody]

"If we choose to give someone a donation it has absolutely nothing to do with ebay. The only difficulty initially is getting Ty's email, because ebay would see that as being the start of a potential off-site sale, and they REALLY don't like that."

Yes, whether it's an email address or Paypal account details, they're both off ebay.  I would really like to think that ebay will somehow facilitate this - even perhaps by doing a straight swap between ebay accounts.

[xyz307xyz]

I understand. My point, as per another post, was as CS have confirmed the buyer opened the wrong type of case (not literally but by agreeing the item description was accurate) that they could (I hoped) refer it to someone to review manually at this stage; as an exception. If you/anyone says there simply isn't that process at ebay then it is amazing - for this item/delivery cost, particularly as the next review stage (manual) does not just decide - e.g. the seller does have to pay for the return but instead could decide the buyer keeps the item and gets a refund.

I'm not disputing what you say, I've learnt from this not to list anything similar (high value item, high value delivery).