Ebay removed Vinyl record listing. Counterfeit item policy does not apply to all.

[frotnrs]

I had listed a Pink Floyd live in 1977 album from my collection for sale. A few hours later I received an email form Ebay which said 

"We had to remove one or more of your listings for not following our Counterfeit item policy."

Fair enough and I'm quite happy to abide by the policy but I do wonder why it only seems to apply to private sellers like myself and not large businesses like MusicMagpie, Rough Trade, Chalkys, IHaveIt, and numerous others. There are some sellers on Ebay who advertise nothing else by 'Collectors' Vinyl and CD' and have done so for years. What I would like to know is why Ebay does not apply its Counterfeit item policy equally and fairly to all sellers. If  I am not allowed to sell something I bought from a legitimate retailer (Juno in this case) then why are large businesses allowed to advertise and sell this sort of item without fear of this policy being applied to them?

Any thoughts?

[davidninetynine]

The answer is simple.

You are a small-time private seller and ebay don't make much money from you. 

On the other hand, the big business sellers pay large amounts in commissions and fees, thereby contributing significantly to their profits and fatcat remuneration. Ebay does not want to upset them.

[frotnrs]

Of course but it would be good if ‘following our counterfeit item policy’ applied to everyone. Surely a policy is meant to be enforced across the board regardless. But you’re quite right, it only seems to apply to ordinary people, not big corporations. A bit like the law in certain countries. Thanks for your reply.

[selective_distribution]

Completely agree with you. I have tried listing various `LIVE` albums, and have received the  `Counterfeit Item` message. I will not risk it again as I don`t want any restrictions on my account. I have pointed out to ebay that there are literally THOUSANDS of `Bootleg` albums listed for sale on the site, but they don`t seem to be very bothered. I think that if you get the `counterfeit` warning, it could be because a competitor is reporting your listing? To add insult to injury though, in this months `Record Collector` magazine there is an article about the biggest selling items online, and the main item is a Pink Floyd BOOTLEG album, live from Hamburg 1971, which sold for a staggering £ 3,728! But the most astonishing thing to me is that the article actually say`s that eBay supplied this information!........Really eBay. you are giving warnings for listing `Bootlegs`, and then bragging about it when someone gets a large sum for selling one on your platform!

[a45heaven]

Check out Discogs for the album in question  - they are more reliable to have the correct knowledge on Bootlegs etc, where ebay have a financial bias and react to 'copyright' threats without investigating the accusations.

[wycombe1]

Some bright spark with nothing better to do with their time is reporting you - usually a competitor. I get the same with some of my banknote listings and when you challenge you get a stock reply rejecting your appeal. Now I just cancel the listing on eBay and list it elsewhere. Life is too short to waste it arguing with a bot.

[frotnrs]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I've been collecting records for over 50 years and whilst Discogs is a help it can be far from accurate, it may say an item from a company is unofficial and then allow it to be sold. Best approach with caution.

The email I got from eBay said This came to our attention because of a user report so there may be some truth in what selective_distribution and wycombe1 have said although I can't see why anyone would regard me as a competitor or want to have a go at me. I'm not a business or dealer, just a private seller and I only sell albums that are from my own collection that are duplicates or no loner wanted. I can't see how that can have upset anyone.

Given what selective_distribution has said about the article in Record Collector it seems pretty evident that this 'Counterfeit item policy' is only there for show and that it doesn't actually apply to sellers unless someone decides to 'report' them. Must say it certainly looks like the policy is of no concern to large retailers or even certain private sellers who advertise nothing but bootleg albums.

eBay certainly can't be bothered to enforce their own rules. After sending me the email about my listing, they must have forgotten about their counterfeit policy and that Counterfeit products are illegal and not allowed on eBay as  I got a couple of emails to remind me that a couple of bootleg albums I had looked at (not watched) were still available at a reduced price and that others of the same ilk were to be had on their site. 

I have appealed against their ruling and pointed out that 'live' albums are for sale in vast numbers but I expect to get back their bot generated dismissal early next week.

Maybe a letter to Record Collector pointing out their hypocrisy wouldn't be a bad thing... but then again it probably would be a wasted effort. 

[vinylscot]

You are looking at this slightly skewed. It is right that your listing was removed. Under the rules, bootlegs should not be sold on eBay. eBay will not change their mind.

Your actual issue, which I think almost everyone agrees with, is eBay's inconsistency, and why other copies are available for sale. eBay does not have a specialist team dealing with matters like this. They do tend to act only when a complaint has been made.

The obvious question following on from that is "why do they not remove all other listings of the same product?". The reason I have been given in the past by eBay customer services in Ireland (usually quite reliable), is that, as they are not experts, they won't know if other listings are offering exactly the same item, and so they rely on member reports.

That is undoubtedly a cop out, but there are grey areas, and non-experts would be likely to make mistakes. For example, if you look through all the coloured vinyl variants of The Beatles' "Abbey Road", you will find that some are legitimate, and far more are not. Therefore, they only deal with reports, and they tend to go along with whatever discogs says.

...and don't get me started with discogs' inconsistency, and their lack of clarity over what constitutes an "official" release.

[frotnrs]

Thanks for your reply Vinylscot but as I said in my original post I am quite happy to abide by their policy but that their lack of consistency in applying is what I find annoying. The excuse that they do not have experts and rely on 'reports' is an especially feeble response, especially for a concern as large as Ebay which we are led to believe is an auction site. Why it is unable to operate in the same way as other established auction houses who employ specialists in any given area is rather disconcerting. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to recruit a couple of people who have more than a rudimentary knowledge of all things vinyl and cd and what constitutes a bootleg / pirate / counterfeit. If their definitions were clear then there wouldn't be items like dubious copies of Abbey Road for sale on their site, not to mention that perennial favourite 'The Beatles in Mono CD Box' (of which there is currently at least one on offer). 

To rely on people who seem to have nothing better to do than report private sellers, or have a grudge against others for what ever reason for listing some of their collection, does not seem like a professional way for eBay to run their affairs.

If they have a policy that bootlegs / counterfiet vinyl should not be sold, then that should apply to all and it should be enforced equally across the board regardless of who is selling. Applying it on an ad hoc basis would seem to imply that the policy is only there as window dressing.

and I won't start a discussion about Discogs inconsistency otherwise this could never end. 

[vinylscot]

In principle, I agree with you, but if eBay had to employ a couple of people who were "experts" in vinyl records, they would need to do so for dozens of other products, at significant cost, which would no doubt be borne by us in some form of higher fees.

eBay is not an auction house in the generally accepted sense. You would buy from an auction house, so they have different levels of liability - you don't buy from eBay. eBay describes itself as "a global online marketplace that facilitates the sale of goods and services", and has long relied on the "mere conduit" excuse to separate itself from the sellers.

It's like speeding drivers - the vast majority never get caught, but those who do get caught are still in the wrong.

[selective_distribution]

Interesting that you should mention the `Beatles In Mono CD Box`. I have two of these boxes which are fully shrink wrapped, and were  brought from the Wholesale distributor on release when I had my Bricks and Mortar shop, and so I know that they are 100% genuine. It`s nearly impossible to sell this item, as it seems to be a popular opinion that they are ALL fake! I listed and sold one on eBay last year, only to have the buyer return it saying " I don`t even have to open it.....it`s a counterfeit!". Apparently he thought that the white box was not white enough for him! Seems he has not heard that colour can fade slightly. Oh well, that`s his loss, as he actually had the genuine article. I have an auction of stock with Omega auctions coming up next year, and we will see if they are `Not White Enough`.

[vinylscot]

With that particular release (Beatles in Mono), counterfeits found their way into the regular market, as the counterfeiters infiltrated the supply chain. Given the numbers of these on sale, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority are counterfeit, possibly including those you bought from the wholesaler. 

If your copies are part of larger lots being sold on Omega, they will probably pass without comment, but if you're trying to sell them individually, expect them to be a little more cautious. I say "a little" as Omega, like so many B&M auction houses, have little hesitation in offering lots containing bootlegs/counterfeits, describing them as "private pressings".

[frotnrs]

Your analogy vinylscot, is certainly interesting but speeding drivers are caught by authorities who enforce the rules. The police, unlike eBay, do not wait to be alerted by other drivers.

Perhaps the word ‘expert’ is unnecessary, but surely it wouldn’t be too much for them to take on people who have at least a degree of knowledge in any given subject. As they already have people working for them to at reported cases, surely appointing a knowledgeable person to that role would not engender any greater employment costs.

Do they apply the same method to all other areas? Do they not bother that counterfeit car parts which could endanger life may be on sale, or do they just wait until they get a report.
eBay as you say is "a global online marketplace that facilitates the sale of goods", but if it has rules then I would think they should apply to all.
There also seems to be confusion around what is counterfeit or not. What I listed for sale was a bootleg album, eBay is awash with them. Whilst they may be ‘dodgy’ items they don’t pretend to be anything but what they are. I bought my first bootleg album from Virgin Records by mail order back in 1972. I knew what I was getting and was quite aware that it wasn’t a copy of anything but a collection off material that was unavailable anywhere else. Bootlegs are still the same and today even major retailers sell ‘interesting’ cds and albums, you only have to look at their listings own eBay. It’s pretty obvious what they are, even to someone with only a glancing interest in putting together a music collection.

Counterfeit cds or albums are a different matter as they are imitations (good or bad), copies of legitimate releases made with the intent of deceiving the buyer. The Beatles in Mono cd box set is a very good example but I can’t agree that the “the vast majority are counterfeit”. In none of the extensive discussions I’ve followed over the years concerning this release has that notion ever been raised and I’m pretty sure that if your assertion were correct then certain groups would have dissected every word and syllable. It is quite possible, if you know what to look for, to spot a fake box set and I don’t think that someone with as many years experience dealing in music as selective_distribution would not be fooled. It’s also hard to imagine that the distributors would have got very far in suppling counterfeit Beatles boxes before being discovered.

[rainbowtrax]

@frotnrs I agree with you entirely about the very distinct difference between a bootleg and a pirate/counterfeit. People often get the two muddled. 

But @vinylscot is right about the Beatles In Mono pirates. The supply chain was very much infiltrated and, while dealers and serious collectors may now have a good idea how to spot one, at the time of release, everyone was less knowledgeable about the differences. Although some of them are very easy to spot, it's often a case of only noticing once you go looking. In the case of end users buying them, with no particular reason to be suspicious and not handling multiple copies, in the main they will just assume that their fake is legit. 

Take a look at this thread Counterfeit items - UK eBay Community for an idea of how easily people are fooled when they want to believe that what they've bought is the real deal. It's DVDs rather than CDs in this case but the seller in question has sold nothing but counterfeit items, from electric toothbrushes to CD and DVD box sets, but has 99.5% positive feedback from people they've conned. This in spite of stealing and displaying the business name, address and VAT number of a high end retailer of a different type of goods. But 99.5% of their buyers who left feedback have been happy to be taken in.

Ebay will never apply their rules or the law consistently and could never employ enough "experts" to cover the wide range of items on offer. With a few exceptions, you can sell and buy virtually anything here and ebay staff, in the main, have no expertise in any of it. Certain ebay staff obviously know about certain areas, but they don't all work in the department that deals with removals plus there are just too many listings constantly going live to keep on top of it without incurring huge staffing costs - which would then be passed on in higher fees.