Advice required on a return

[ett1954]

In more than 15 years of selling on eBay I have today been advised that a buyer is returning a book.

No problems with that however there is no discernable reason given for the return.  The return details show the following:

12 Sep

The buyer added tracking details

Comments  PUDO RETURN

Courier  CollectPlus

Reason for return  

Comments  Click and Collect Return

The above means nothing to me other than a tracking number supplied shows the book on its way back.  

The tracking number has been supplied showing that it has been accepted at the collection point.

Obviously I have requested information from the buyer with no response as yet.  The book was originally delivered on August 31st.  The buyer is also a private seller, selling mainly comics therefore not related to the items I sell.

Anyone know what PUDO RETURN means?

[ett1954]

I am perfectly aware of the legal situation in respect to the UK distance selling laws.  Where am I making up my own terms and conditions?

Why not, as a matter of courtesy, state the reason if going through the return process as the listing clearly states I accept returns; rather than state the reason as PUDO Return and Click and Collect return.  It would have made more sense to leave the reason blank.  If it was a damage return I would need the packaging or at least a photograph to make a claim against the courier, hence my original concern.

As the opening post stated this has been my first return in nearly 20 years of selling on eBay and my enquiry was to ascertain what a PUDO Return was; which the first responder kindly resolved even though it didn't make the situation any clearer.

[sheba-knows-best]

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@ett1954 wrote:

I am perfectly aware of the legal situation in respect to the UK distance selling laws.  Where am I making up my own terms and conditions?

Why not, as a matter of courtesy, state the reason if going through the return process as the listing clearly states I accept returns; rather than state the reason as PUDO Return and Click and Collect return.  It would have made more sense to leave the reason blank.  If it was a damage return I would need the packaging or at least a photograph to make a claim against the courier, hence my original concern.

As the opening post stated this has been my first return in nearly 20 years of selling on eBay and my enquiry was to ascertain what a PUDO Return was; which the first responder kindly resolved even though it didn't make the situation any clearer.

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But its odd. Because I believe (please say if I am wrong) that the buyer cant state the reason 'PUDO return'. He has to use a number of other reasons. Only a click and collect place can use the reason PUDO (I think). It certainly wasn't an option for me when I tried a dummy return earlier on.

Everything points to a click and collect return.  If it had happened to me, I'd be wondering if I'd somehow generated an ECP label (which the buyer wanted) but recorded it as buyers address in my book. But then my signed-for RM tracking doesnt show exact address... maybe yours does?

BTW - I wish I'd only had one return in 20 years. I'm 120+ a year ☹️

[4_bathrooms]

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@ett1954 wrote:

Buyer was in touch by eBay message late last night.  Apologised and said he was unable to collect!  Maybe he had it sent to someone else for him to collect! 

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I think there are a couple of possibilities:

1. Your buyer went to the carrier's website and used the tracking number to rearrange delivery to a collection point - which carrier did you use? However, this doesn't explain how an eBay return was generated without a return reason being provided unless it was via eBay's API integration with the carrier involved.
2. Your buyer purchased something else from another seller and had that item delivered to a collection point. They failed to collect that item in time and either deliberately or accidentally opened a request against your sale and entered the other seller's tracking number. However, this doesn't explain the lack of a return reason.

As far as I can tell "PUDO return" is a phrase used by Argos/Sainsbury's when a C&C item is not collected within the 7 day deadline.

[4_bathrooms]

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@ett1954 wrote:

@plpmr  You are looking at my listings from a different country, Ireland, that's why you are seeing no returns.  In fact if you click on the see details you will see it is only 'change of mind returns' I don't accept on international sales which is perfectly legal.  The buyer is in the UK - returns are accepted on all my listings for UK sales.

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There's actually nothing in the Consumer Contracts Regulations that limits a buyer's right to a remorse return to only those buyers located in the UK. 

[ett1954]

Thanks Sheba, I think I have just got to the bottom of this thanks to your message.  Although eBay were showing me the buyer's details and the return clearly states "The buyer added tracking details" and "The buyer ****** created a return" when I drilled into my Royal Mail account I can see the buyer requested delivery to a C & C point.  It would have saved a lot of confusion if when an item is returned this way that the messages stated "The click and collect point created a return" etc.

What confused the situation even further is that as the return came through I was in the process of packing two further purchases for this buyer which were going to his home address.  I have certainly learnt that for my next return (hopefully not for another 20 years) I will have to doublecheck eBay's info. against that of Royal Mail.  Thanks for your input, it has been very helpful.

[ett1954]

@4_bathrooms   Thanks for the your response which crossed with my posting below.

"As far as I can tell "PUDO return" is a phrase used by Argos/Sainsbury's when a C&C item is not collected within the 7 day deadline." - you can now add Morrisons to Argos/Sainsbury.

[4_bathrooms]

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@ett1954 wrote:

"As far as I can tell "PUDO return" is a phrase used by Argos/Sainsbury's when a C&C item is not collected within the 7 day deadline." - you can now add Morrisons to Argos/Sainsbury.

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Argos & Sainsbury's are the same company; I think eBay's original C&C options appeared as a result of an agreement between eBay & Argos. eBay later added the Collect+ network (Collect+ is a partnership between PayPoint and Parcel2Go) which added most of the other supermarkets, convenience stores and petrol stations (i.e. PayPoint's customers) to the list of C&C locations. I had only ever seen the PUDO acronym used by Argos - interesting to know it seems to be just a generic term used by all the C&C providers. 

[the-nutwood-collection]

You can divert a parcel to a post office or a parcel shop.

Wich carrier did you use?

[jiggery-pokery]

PUDO RETURN is where the buyer did not collect from the Click & Collect Collection Point

You should report the buyer and you maybe able to claim back the postage

[ett1954]

@4_bathrooms   thankfully your advice on these boards always seems to provide a way forward on these issues.  Can you, or anyone for that matter, help with this 'dog's dinner' of a system.

The package has finally arrived back from the click and collect point after sitting in Yodel's depot 40 miles away for six days.  I have accessed the order to refund the buyer.  On clicking the refund button I am met with this message:  "You cannot issue a refund at this time because a return request is open for an item in this order."

My original payment is on hold and I have 48 hours to make the refund, that I am not allowed to make, before eBay step in and no doubt penalise me for not settling the case.

I really don't know how those people with a significant amount of returns deal with this garbage!

[myriad*seller]

Can you go into the return request and make the refund that way? 

[ett1954]

@myriad*seller  thanks for your response.  When I respond to the case I get the following message:

"eBay Customer Support has placed the case on hold until 30 Sep 2024 to allow time to provide additional documentation.

The buyer provided tracking that shows the item is currently on its way to you. You should receive it soon."

I suspect this has happened because previously I got a message from eBay saying the item had been returned and I should refund the buyer.  I contacted CS and told them to look at the tracking - the item was still at Yodel's depot and I wasn't prepared to refund until I got the item back.

[myriad*seller]

Which is it? 

"The package has finally arrived back from the click and collect point" 

Or 

"the item was still at Yodel's depot"?

My previous response was based on your answer that the item had arrived back...

[ett1954]

The item was at the local Yodel depot yesterday where it had been for six days when eBay had marked it as delivered back to me.  That's when I called CS.  It finally arrived back a couple of hours ago but I am unable to refund.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Don't refund.  You need to wait until the hold is expired on the return.

Once expired, they will automatically refund it.

You can actually at that point, (assuming not physically returned), appeal the case and ebay will cover the cost.

[ett1954]

@therenewalworkshopltd   Thanks for your response.

Unfortunate for the buyer as I did promise that when I received it back I would refund and relist for him to repurchase along with extra to cover the original postage.  The case doesn't end for 10 days.  He originally couldn't collect due to personal issues and has since purchased other items with no issues.

The item is back with me and I was thinking that maybe it is eBay tracking that is causing the problem as the courier's tracking now shows delivered but eBay still shows the item at the courier's depot.  This morning it was still with the courier but eBay were telling me it had been delivered.  I was wondering if when the eBay tracking finally updates with the courier's tracking whether it would then allow me to refund.

I am still confused as to why eBay was telling me it had been delivered this morning and to refund the buyer even though the courier's tracking was showing that it hadn't been delivered.  

[sml192]

I think the issue is definitely that the system isn't currently recognising that the item has been delivered back to you. 

If it doesn't update in the next 24 hours then you may need to contact eBay CS so that they can review the tracking manually and remove the hold in order for you to issue the refund. 

[ett1954]

@sml192  Thanks, I'll give that a try on Sunday if I am still in the same position.  As I see it if eBay do the refund I will take a hit on my account which is ridiculous.

[4_bathrooms]

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@ett1954 wrote:

My original payment is on hold and I have 48 hours to make the refund, that I am not allowed to make, before eBay step in and no doubt penalise me for not settling the case.

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I don't think you'll be penalised because when a C&C return is caused by the buyer failing to collect it is treated as a remorse return. There won't be an INR nor INAD ding in your service metrics and it shouldn't attract a "Case closed without seller resolution" defect as eBay's policy states "If you fail to collect your item within 7 days, we'll treat this as cancellation of your order. The item will be returned to the seller or may be donated to a charity or disposed of with no liability to sellers, eBay and/or service providers."

I believe the issue has been caused by eBay's return system not having a dedicated process for "PUDO returns". eBay's system is treating it like any other remorse return; hence the case stating "The buyer added tracking details" etc. From your last post it sounds as though there has been some glitch with the integration between eBay's and Royal Mail's tracking updates. You likely received a nudge to refund the buyer on the day the item should have arrived and when you told eBay it had not they put the case on hold for 10 days to allow extra time for it to actually show up. The 10 days is likely because Tracked isn't considered lost until 7 working days after the due date has passed (effectively 10 calendar days maximum).

How nice is it to know that eBay recognises RM's definition of "lost" when a buyer is responsible for returning something?

[ett1954]

@4_bathrooms   Thanks for your considered response.

Just to update:

Return from Morrisons was by Collect Plus; courier used was Yodel - that explained the six days it sat in the local depot before being delivered.

A case was eventually opened by eBay after I spoke to a CS agent (I believe it may a been a Concierge agent) when eBay were instructing me to refund the buyer even though tracking showed it undelivered.  They opened a case giving me another  10 days but telling me to refund when it was received.

Received the item last Friday night and tried to refund but no option to do so on the case.

Spoke via live chat to a CS agent on Saturday at 8 a.m. and confirmed I wanted to refund the buyer.  They initiated the refund for me and told me the case would indicate that is was completed by eBay with no seller resolution but to ignore that.

Sure enough the case states:

Outcome The case was decided in the buyer's favour.

More details You agreed to give the buyer a refund and didn't issue it.

No defect showing on my account at the moment.  The second CS agent had stated he would see that I didn't get a defect.  Seems to be the case at the moment but will keep an eye on this until 21st Oct.  Fortunately I do have a full transcript of the live chat.

I believe you are spot on with your statement ......... "the issue has been caused by eBay's return system not having a dedicated process for "PUDO returns" - what a time consuming carry on for what should have been a simple process.

A bit like the "make an offer" system.  I tried to make 4 offers with different sellers last night.  Each had, probably unknowingly, the immediate payment requirement activated.  It was essential I used 'click and collect' should the offer be accepted and each offered the service. ....... I had to abandon each offer as there is no facility to use that service with immediate payment.  In the end I went elsewhere and got what I needed for the price I was prepared to pay. ......... but that's a different story.

Thanks again for your help and advice.