Ebay Simple Delivery is a scam?

[louiseb4231]

I'm hoping someone here will be able to help or explain what can be done.

I sold a mobile phone on eBay and was forced in to using eBay simple delivery to send it with Royal Mail. I wasnt bothered by this as it seemed to simplify the process. I packaged the item and took it to the post office where I placed it on the scale and gave it to the staff.

A couple of days later the buyer contacted me and said they had only received an empty box with a tear in the side. I looked in to what to do and eBay simple delivery advice said the buyer should report it to eBay, so I asked them to do so. For some reason the buyer opened a return instead of marking the item as not received. I then couldnt do anything apart from wait to escalate the return request; this seemed to be the only way to get eBay to step in.

I waited the time and then escalated it. To me shock after escalating it eBay said they have refunded the buyer out of my funds. Isnt the point of simple delivery that both buyers and sellers are covered with shipping? I contacted eBay to see if a mistake had been made and was advised I need to appeal the decision. 

I did this and also spoke to someone on live chat. The person on live chat advised that within 5 days I would be refunded the money that was taken from me. I thought this was it dealt with, but 5 days passed and I received nothing. So I messaged customers services again and received a reply saying sorry but it can take 10 days... Okay I can wait if I need to.

I still received nothing so I messaged again. This time I received a message saying after a review my refund has been denied! eBay said they have reviewed it and the buyer provided evidence they received the package without the item. I've never disputed this was the case (I mean it is possible the buyer just stole the item and claimed to not receive it). But simple delivery terms state I should be refunded if the item is lost in transit dont they?

Anyway I decided to call up this time. I spoke to a woman on the phone who advised that nothing could be done and I was liable. I asked her to check the weight the post office recorded but she said they dont have access to that information. She said the buyer sent photos of an empty box and she suggested that I must have shipped an empty box. I asked her to escalate to a supervisor and she did.

The supervisor came on and said she has had a look and eBays decision would be final on it. She told me I should contact the shipping carrier and ask them what to do about the item being missing. I asked her if I would be insured as if I went to a post office to post something myself I'd get adequate insurance to cover it, but she said she didnt know the insurance situation and couldnt help me with that.

To summarise I'm now I'm left £250 out of pocket with no idea what to do.  As a seller I am now forced to use simple delivery, but if anything goes wrong with that delivery I am not insured? I dont understand how simple delivery is supposed to work? There is no way to sell and ship items on eBay now with insurance? If eBay dont rectify this my 19 years of selling are over.

[**peaseblossom**]

Unfortunately Simple Delivery only covers for loss and damage in transit.   It doesn't cover theft by courier, which we're seeing a lot more of.

The buyer had to use a return because the tracking would show the (empty) package had been delivered.

Can only suggest you look into your household insurance,  or credit card cover depending on how you orginally bought the phone.

[louiseb4231]

Thats an unbelievable terrible policy. So if I sell something on eBay and its stolen by the carrier I'm not covered? And I cant select my own postage so this is the only option?

[4_bathrooms]

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

I sold a mobile phone on eBay

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To be brutally honest that is rarely ever a good idea. Virtually every "empty package" or different item received claim on these boards has been for a mobile phone.

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

A couple of days later the buyer contacted me and said they had only received an empty box with a tear in the side.

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What does the posties' delivery photo show? You can see this if you enter the tracking number into Royal Mail's website here.

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

I looked in to what to do and eBay simple delivery advice said the buyer should report it to eBay, so I asked them to do so. For some reason the buyer opened a return instead of marking the item as not received. I then couldnt do anything apart from wait to escalate the return request; this seemed to be the only way to get eBay to step in.

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You needed to upload a return label if eBay hadn't automatically done so. There is a process to follow in return cases that involves getting whatever the buyer claimed they received returned to you even if it's an empty box. Return cases are automated and all the escalate link does is speed up the automated process - a process a seller is almost guaranteed to lose. If you had issued a return label you could have stopped the automated process once the return tracking indicated delivery. It's too late for that now.

None of that is your fault by the way - eBay do not make the correct process clear when a seller is a victim of theft or fraud.

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

I waited the time and then escalated it. To me shock after escalating it eBay said they have refunded the buyer out of my funds. Isnt the point of simple delivery that both buyers and sellers are covered with shipping? I contacted eBay to see if a mistake had been made and was advised I need to appeal the decision. 

I did this and also spoke to someone on live chat. The person on live chat advised that within 5 days I would be refunded the money that was taken from me. I thought this was it dealt with, but 5 days passed and I received nothing.

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This is very important - do you have a transcript of the live chat session?

[**peaseblossom**]

What else can they do.   It's hard to prove theft.   You were suspecting the buyer and ebay would probably do the same.   

If the buyer had used the reason "Item damaged"  (eg. if the phone's original box was damaged to get the phone out)  ebay would have issued the refund themselves and you'd have kept the payment.

[louiseb4231]

Hi, I really appreciate the help thank you.

After reading a bit I can see lots of issues with mobile phones yes 😞

The delivery photo doesnt even have the package in it, its just a photo of the post box next to the door. Does this help me at all? I assume not.

I do have the transcript on my emails, plus the message from eBay in my messages saying

"Lousie, I have checked the details and determined that there was a manual refund request submitted for this item to our dedicated specialized team. Please allow me to share that it usually takes7-10 business days for process the refund and I can see that the request for manual refund was processed on 24th November and I would request you to wait till 8th December."

Surely they have to go through with the refund after this?

[louiseb4231]

If they are covering for loss, surely they can cover for theft too?

[4_bathrooms]

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

The delivery photo doesnt even have the package in it, its just a photo of the post box next to the door. Does this help me at all? I assume not.

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Not really, it was an attempt to determine how honest the buyer was.

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

I do have the transcript on my emails, plus the message from eBay in my messages saying

"Lousie, I have checked the details and determined that there was a manual refund request submitted for this item to our dedicated specialized team. Please allow me to share that it usually takes7-10 business days for process the refund and I can see that the request for manual refund was processed on 24th November and I would request you to wait till 8th December."

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That "final decision" you received from eBay means they are washing their hands of the matter. As you have eBay's final decision you can take the matter up with the Financial Ombudsman Service. In your complaint you need to make it clear the item was sent via Simple Delivery meaning eBay were responsible for commissioning the carrier, the process you followed in the return case and provide screenshots of the transcript and the message where eBay specifically told you that you would be refunded. I'm afraid this is not going to be a quick process - it could take months but it is likely your only means of getting your money back now.

Did you record the serial number and IMEI of the handset? You need to file a report with Action Fraud (who seemingly have had a change of identity) including all the details you can provide. You will be given a reference number and a report which you should include in your complaint to the ombudsman - the Action Fraud/Report Fraud reference number would have been key with the eBay return case but it's too late for that now.  

[neovass0]

   Unfortunately, most sellers on here will experience something similar at one point or another. Irrespective of the value of the item, it leaves us fuming. The empty box delivery gets more frequent towards Christmas every year. Couriers (or Amazon) often deny it at the time as a matter of routine, but the truth comes out a couple of months later. When sending items like that, I use a stupidly oversized plain (or boring?) box. I mean, it isn't going to fit through the letterbox anyway. Therefore the item is well packaged, but also the courier simply sees a nothing special parcel, with hardly any weight to it. I had a friend who was selling bundles of worthless DVD's, but most were getting 'lost' in transit. He didn't understand it, until I pointed out he was using boxes with pokemon, funko, branding etc.. 

[papso22]

Just to clarify something.  Had your buyer used 'arrived damaged' as the reason for the return you would have had seller protection under Simple delivery.

[neovass0]

   Just to ask, the whole 'arrived damaged' or 'not as described' debate with regards to simple delivery has come up on a number of threads in the past few weeks. But in the buyers defence, what exactly are you meant to do? I wouldn't know, if I was standing there with a very expensive empty box. I'd be freaking out. The item has not arrived period (although tracking says otherwise) and I don't know if it would have been as described. Come to think of it, if the return has been arranged, I suggest louiseb4231 video records the parcel when it arrives (or gets picked up) and documents themselves opening it, to find nothing inside? Then forward on to eBay, stating you have received an empty parcel back from the buyer. Then, how do they rule, lol.

[papso22]

The problem is it doesn't matter to the buyer what reason they use for the return.  They get refunded whatever.

What they must not do is an item not received,  they will lose that one. 

It's the seller that gets hit if the wrong reason is used.

[neovass0]

Agreed, but the buyer is unlikely to know this, unless they are themselves a seller on the platform. The seller could in theory just outright tell the buyer what case to open I suppose, to ensure both of them come out on top.

[vinylscot]

Up until now, eBay seems to have been very reasonable with refunds, even providing them when least expected.

Could it be that eBay has started tightening up a little on the number of refunds being paid out through SD? I can see eBay's argument, although I think they are splitting hairs and being rather unreasonable in this case.

Should eBay have covered this if the buyer had used the reason "arrived damaged"? The terms of SD say it will be covered if the item is lost or damaged, not if the package is damaged. eBay often requires photographs of damage, and I would imagine that, for £250.00, they would reject the claim of damage.

However, the claim should still be valid as the item was lost, even if the packaging wasn't, and I am surprised that eBay has not recognised that, and refunded the seller.

The real problem now, as I see it, is that the seller has no recourse against the courier. The courier's contract is with eBay, and they will not enter into any discussion with the seller. Would it be worth trying to call first thing in the morning (8:00) and hoping to get connected to someone in Ireland? They are almost always far more knowledgeable.

Alternatively a post on eBay's public-facing Facebook page seems to be doing the trick quite often recently. That might be worth a shot, although you will need to be careful to keep it anonymised.

As an aside, although it has been alluded to, I don't think anyone has explicitly suggested to the seller yet, that if she has the IMEI, she should be able to get the phone blocked, so it won't be of any use to whoever has it now.

[4_bathrooms]

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@vinylscot wrote:

Should eBay have covered this if the buyer had used the reason "arrived damaged"? The terms of SD say it will be covered if the item is lost or damaged, not if the package is damaged. eBay often requires photographs of damage, and I would imagine that, for £250.00, they would reject the claim of damage.

However, the claim should still be valid as the item was lost, even if the packaging wasn't, and I am surprised that eBay has not recognised that, and refunded the seller.

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In an earlier thread I posited eBay needs a "Received an empty package" return option where Simple Delivery is concerned. eBay's policy states:

"There are many benefits to using Simple Delivery, including:

• You'll be protected if the item is lost or damaged from the point the item is scanned into the carrier's delivery network and until it's marked as delivered"

So, once the item is marked as delivered eBay considers it to be delivered regardless what the buyer claims. There's no way of knowing for certain in this case but in another previously reported case it was clear the buyer was telling the truth (received a different item) due to the picture obtained with the delivery scan; i.e. it was a clear case of theft by courier although the item was switched rather than an empty package being delivered.

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@vinylscot wrote:

The real problem now, as I see it, is that the seller has no recourse against the courier. The courier's contract is with eBay, and they will not enter into any discussion with the seller. Would it be worth trying to call first thing in the morning (8:00) and hoping to get connected to someone in Ireland? They are almost always far more knowledgeable.

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You're correct; where a Simple Delivery label is concerned the seller has no contract with the carrier so can't make a claim for compensation against them; I have no idea why eBay's customer services would even have suggested that. The issue I see is this:

1. The OP lost the INAD case
2. The OP contacted eBay's CS and was promised a refund
3. The OP appealed eBay's original decision via the closed case and received a "final decision"

That "final decision" is important; it is eBay's (legal) way of saying exactly that. Somewhere in the small print at the bottom of that message there is likely a mention of being able to take the matter further with the Financial Ombudsman Service. The OP could try contacting eBay's CS pointing out the promise they received of a "manual refund" mentioning their intention of taking the matter up with the FOS. In one of the cases linked earlier I advised the user to specifically ask eBay for a "final decision" which seemingly caused eBay to suddenly change their tune - I suspect this was because such a request would only be made if someone intended to make a complaint to the FOS. However, the OP has already been given a final decision which is something eBay are not supposed to do unless they really mean it.

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@vinylscot wrote:

As an aside, although it has been alluded to, I don't think anyone has explicitly suggested to the seller yet, that if she has the IMEI, she should be able to get the phone blocked, so it won't be of any use to whoever has it now.

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Reporting the IMEI as stolen will block the device from every UK network so it is worth doing. However, most stolen devices are either stripped for parts or exported rendering a UK-only IMEI block useless. The block is only really useful if the device is sold to an unsuspecting buyer or used by a particularly stupid thief who doesn't realise the IMEI can be geolocated when the device is powered on. The OP's report to Action Fraud/Report Fraud is their evidence they are a victim of fraud; eBay have an obligation under their FCA regulation to protect consumers against becoming victims of fraud.
   

[louiseb4231]

Good morning all,

First I marked the phone as stolen using the IMEI with the original network seller so I assume they have blocked it and everything. So for whoever does have it hopefully it is useless unless they have sent it abroad. 

The main update is I have checked my messages this morning and eBay have refunded me! 

"Good news. We've reviewed your case again and will refund £258.93 to you.

After reviewing the case again, we changed the original outcome of the case. This case will not affect your seller level, and any Feedback left for this transaction will be removed.After reviewing the case again, we changed the original outcome of the case. This case will not affect your seller level, and any Feedback left for this transaction will be removed."

Its good that they have finally seen sense even though it took a lot of time and effort to get them to reach this. Thank you for the help everyone. I believe the lesson to be learnt for future is any issues with the delivery make sure the buyer selects item arrived damaged instead?

[4_bathrooms]

Well that's good news! Yet another surprising turn of face by eBay.

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@louiseb4231 wrote:

I believe the lesson to be learnt for future is any issues with the delivery make sure the buyer selects item arrived damaged instead?

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I wouldn't bother selling a phone worth more than £50 on my private account; they're known as "scam magnets" on these boards. Whilst I have no idea whether your buyer was being honest or not at some point between the Post Office counter and your buyer's living room someone was dishonest. If a buyer was intending to defraud a seller I think it would be very unlikely they would select the only return reason that holds eBay entirely liable for the refund.    

[danntum43]

Hello. This exact same thing happened to me. Also a mobile phone. The buyer sent me a message stating that they had received a package with a wire and a link sync modular????? I called eBay as never bother with the message system.always speak to someone and ask their name at the start of the call. I was advised incorrectly at first as they suggested the buyer start a return so I paid for a label to have an empty box sent back. They should have advised that when the buyer raised a dispute the reasoning should have been item damaged or tampered with in transit. Anyway a long story short, they also tried to tell me that I could not get my money back but after I gave them the names, dates and times of everyone I had spoke to on eBay and requested all the calls to be listened too they advised I was given incorrect information and I was covered as this happened in transit. 
when you take your items to be posted demand they weigh the package and obtain a paper receipt .you also do not have to use the simple delivery you could void that label and send your own easy, if I send anything of value I always make sure to not use the simple delivery label( if customers pay post the original label cost will go back to them but if you pay post you will have to fill in a ‘simple delivery refund request form) you can find this in the help section. Always send expensive like a couple of hundred or over with Royal Mail special delivery. This has to be signed for when changes hands anytime during in transit and cannot be delivered with out signature. If sending a mobile phone always take note of the imei number then you could have called the police reported as stolen in transit and they can black the imei number leaving the phone useless as soon as connected to any network it will be blocked.

if you suspect the customer of being fraudulent then tell them you are going to do this, if they have the phone they will cancel the request to return.

i don’t know if the experience you have had with the phone can be resolved but in future follow what I have said and you will be ok. If ever in doubt always speak to an actual person and record everything I.e names, dates , time, brief description of call and all paper receipts and most importantly if a mobile the imei number so you can block the phone.