BPF - ???

[micbr_8101]

Over the last couple of weeks, I have kept an eye on, and occasionally contributed to the post on ebay forums following the BPF fee imposed by ebay on buyers from private sellers.  This new fee followed changes to the accounting system within ebay, restriction of  the number of listings allowed to, and the removal of selling fees from, private sellers and subsequent changes to passing proceeds of sales to sellers.  Taken all together, this appears to be the implementation of a planned strategy by whoever calls the shots in ebay, with more to come - but to what end?

At present the main bone of contention  seems to be the 75p+4% levied on every purchase, inflating every private seller’s prices by just over 4% at the £300 per item level, and by 79% at the £1 level and much more at even lower prices.  Adjusting prices to compensate for this extra cost (as suggested by a “Mentor”), especially at the lower levels, is simply not possible.  To do so would require sellers to sell at profit levels so low as to be unsustainable or non existent.  This is especially true at the low volume, low value level end of the market (which I confess is the level at which I mostly sell (but not necessarily buy!)).

Registered business sellers are not subjected to this additional fee which (again according to a “Mentor) is justified by not adding to the overheads they already carry as “legitimate” businesses thereby handing an unfair competitive edge to private sellers.  A little research into the sellers I buy from reveals that, for a large proportion of them, ebay is simply just one (more) outlet for them to generate sales – some of them even have physical shops.  For these , extra overheads associated with selling through ebay are minimal (ebay fees?).  For legitimate businesses operated from “home”, overheads are already at least partially mitigated by tax relief on “expenses”.  For virtually all ebay sellers I guess the heaviest overhead is time – and I would expect businesses of any sort to have factored this into their pricing policy already.

Unsurprisingly, the private seller community reaction on the ebay forums is an  almost unanimous chorus of protest.  Admittedly. a proportion of this comes from sellers - presumably those operating from homes - who by their own admission are buying goods for selling on, but are registered as private sellers (thus avoiding relevant ebay fees).  They now find themselves at a competitive disadvantage.  If removing this group (of effectively fraudsters) is an objective of these recent changes that’s fine, but it risks alienation of the people who were/are the very foundation of ebay’s “success”.

Buyers from private sellers have always been covered but are now being asked to pay for the privilege, but no-one in their right mind is going to pay over the normal commercial price for any commodity.  So what is the purpose of BPF?  Somebody must know but other than generating extra cash/income and/or discouraging spurious private buyers (surely self defeating objectives) there seems to be nothing  obvious.

There is rumour of an ebay survey inviting opinions on the subject.  Has anybody seen it?  What comprises the sample?  It’s obviously not everyone.  Who designed, and/or is, conducting the survey?  When, where and to whom will the results be revealed/published.

[vinylscot]

As with so many posts like this, on the surface you make sense, but you let yourself down in a couple of places.

"To do so would require sellers to sell at profit levels so low as to be unsustainable or non existent." - genuine private sellers do not have "profits". They are selling their unwanted personal items, admittedly for as much as they can. Profit would only come into it if they were buying items to sell, and, of course genuine private sellers don't do that.

You also minimise the costs borne by genuine business sellers. I sell in the "Music" category, and my commission fee is just short of 12%, and I also have a monthly shop subscription of a little over £90.00. Genuine private sellers pay ZERO, although their buyers now pay 4% (plus 75p). That is a huge disparity, even now, and still a huge temptation for unscrupulous individuals to trade dishonestly on private accounts.

Every honest seller (private and business) will agree with you that this is the problem which needs addressing more than any other. Unfortunately, eBay appears to be unwilling to grab the bull by the horns, so introduces schemes like this, which are designed, in part, to "nudge" some of these charlatans into operating legally. Honest private sellers and their buyers are unfortunately just collateral damage, which eBay reckons it can afford to sustain.

I too would love to be given this survey, but I doubt whether I'll ever see it (although I do have a private account too, which I use for personal purchases.

[forestfeline62]

I met a woman today who was selling on ebay but has now gone to vinted  because of the BPF and having to wait for payouts .

[*vyolla*]

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@forestfeline62 wrote:

I met a woman today who was selling on ebay but has now gone to vinted  because of the BPF and having to wait for payouts .

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Vinted also have a BPF and payouts are held until tracking updates to show delivery. Admittedly, that's slightly less time than eBay as regards payouts.

[papso22]

So far I have seen one reference to an ebay survey on reddit and one post on the M2M from someone who apparently answered it entirely negatively but didn't understand how BPF actually worked.

Not exactly global coverage but presumably ebay has worked out the sample size needed to be statistically valid?  (LOL)

[edwardian-dreams]

Some people are posting that if you lower the price you want for your item to cover  the bpf then that price will bring you a bigger net than when you had to pay fees 

dont know if that’s right, haven’t done a calculation 

seems to be though cos 4% and 75p is a lot less than 12% or whatever it was we were paying 

[micbr_8101]

OK I  confess to mis-use of the word profit, - "reasonable purchase price" may be a better term.  I sell (and buy) postage stamps.  As I said before  this for me and many others, is a low volume and low value market.    Stamps have a market value and generally my customers are aware of that value so it is pointless trying to overcharge.  A large proportiion of stamps are valued at £1 and even less.  To persuade a buyer to buy that stamp and pay postage (minimum 85p), means and auction start price well below market value.  Reducing the price to alleviate the effect of BPF (an extra 79p for a £1 sale) simply erodes any benefit from the sale.  I don't want a "profit", just a reasonable price to enable me to acquire additional items for my collection. 

As regards overheads I note you have well over 1000 listings on ebay with a lowest preice of £5 (although I didn't look through them all so there may be some lower than that).   Presumably alll prices are calculated to cover ebay fees.  I currently have 180 active listings only four which are priced at more than £5  and more than 120 are priced at £1 or less.  Absorbing the additional 20% BPF at the £5 level is conceivable  but not so at the lowest prices.   (Sorry about the hard luck story!!) 

As to the survey I would rather it was condusted by an independent organisation rather than one with a vested interest in the results. 

[magpiecorner1]

Can I ask, what do you do for a living? Have you ever had an eBay business, or any business?  Because your comments seemed very naive.

I sell in the category with the highest fees.  My average fees are 25-27% of turnover, husband's are usually a higher average, around 27-30%, though we have seen 35%.  That's percentage of sales AND of postage.  £3000 a month sales, for instance, means eBay takes £1000!  That has to come of the 'commercial price' you have spoken about.

I had to smile at your comments about allowances.  I claim for the room allowance, £312 a year. Means than I save £59.28 A YEAR in tax on my nett profit.  Helps so very much with the wear and tear on my room, kitchen and bathroom used during business hours.

[themidnightcaller]

What is percentage of genuine private sellers to buy to sell private sellers ?

I ask because every item i'm interested in buying looks like normal people

selling unwanted items.

[vinylscot]

Obviously, nobody knows, as the bogus private sellers don't make themselves known as that.

I think it will depend what you are buying. If you want to buy a new item, and see many at silly prices like £21.55 or £103.71, have a look at these listings. Many of them will be "private" sellers whose prices have changed due to the addition of the BPF. Then look at their "other items" - if there are many new items, or many multiple listings, or what they are selling is not what an individual would be likely to sell (either in nature or quantity), you can be reasonably sure that they will be bogus private sellers.

If you're buying second-hand items, it can be trickier to tell, but again, a look at their "other items" should give you a good idea.

[runninginlane4]

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@edwardian-dreams wrote:

seems to be though cos 4% and 75p is a lot less than 12% or whatever it was we were paying 

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It depends on the price. It was actually 12% + 30p

The point at which PRICE * 4% + 75p = PRICE * 12.8% +30p is about £5.11

eBay collects less fees under the new system on items over £5.11 than it would with the old system but collects more on items under £5.11 than it would on the old fee system.

I did actually reduce the price of my comics that I'm selling by the selling fees when they were scrapped. As most comics are in the range of £1.00 to £3.00 eBay is collect a lot more in fees now. Well it would but I haven't actually sold any since 4th February.

And don't forget the 75p is now per item and not per transaction as with the old 30p fee.

[kath3735_wxmjn]

'but no one in their right mind is going to pay over the normal commercial price for any commodity'!!!   I am a private seller (genuine) and i would never expect to put a 'normal commercial price' on any of my items.  Even the few new items of clothing i have that still have tags (one relative is a bit of a compulsive buyer and cannot be bothered or forgets to return! - younger generation thing i think!)   The tag may say £25 on it but i know  i would be lucky to get even half that much (car boots would be even worse, they all want it for a £).  Every now and again something surprises me about how much i do get but that is a rarity. 

[micbr_8101]

How I make my living and my age are irrelevant and none of your concern.

I confess to being astonished at the level of the fees you carry.  But as so many have said on these forums,

it is our choice whether or not we continue or move on (ie like it or lump it!).  My choice, unless something changes will be to move on.

As regards running a business, the answer is yes. I have  I ran a consultancy service as a sole trader (not on ebay) for some 15 years from the mid 90's onwards.  Things may have changed since I wound down the consultancy, but I suspect you may find it useful to have a word wih a (professional) accountant.

[kath3735_wxmjn]

no one would know that!  Just look at some of the biggest moaners on here and work it out for yourself.   For example someone selling 200 brand new items can no way be said to be a private seller.     Someone ( and i am not counting stamps, postcards etc in this) selling over a thousand items of clothing is no way a private seller.

[micbr_8101]

I have no idea.  Ebay may have some idea - they may even be able to guess who many of them may be.

[lucy_farmer]

' For example someone selling 200 brand new items can no way be said to be a private seller.   '

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Or people selling things that are just impossible to sell second hand because they're 'consumables'.

(Like diet supplements, or pet food, or sun tan lotion,  or even sweets!... etc. etc)

[kath3735_wxmjn]

wonder who you could be meaning.....   Must admit i would never buy any of those items from e bay, most of my purchases have been clothing (2nd hand, i am cheap), dvds and the occasional jigsaw.  I also as a buyer do not care about the BPF as long as the item is what i want and within a range i want to pay.  At the moment i am looking for a specific DVD box set and if i can find it from a buyer who sends it RM, is reputable with the feedback (and that depends on their responses to negs mainly and the positives) then i would buy it regardless of whether £5 of the actual cost goes to e bay.  I, as the buyer, just want the item.

[micbr_8101]

Different "trades".  Buying a coat second hand is a unique transaction.

Buting a collectable stamps happens many times a day from a plethora of outlets of which ebay is but one.  Buyers and sellers can almost always see up to date market prices for almost every stamp ever produced (and I don't mean Stanley Gibbons catalogue prices et al).  

[andha-21]

@kath3735_wxmjn 

Which dvd box set?

That's my main collection over my models.

[magpiecorner1]

I didn't ask your age!

Not entirely sure why you are astonished about the fees we carry - its all there on the fee listings - and of course the fees are only a small part of the equation in a small business.  Whilst maintaining profit margins with ever changing fees is a challenge,  there are not too many home based small businesses who have lots of regular customers throughout the world!

'.....I suspect you may find it useful to have a word wih (sic) a (professional) accountant.'  Was that a dig of some sort?  I think I can allay these rather strange suspicions, my accountant is certainly qualified.  These days he runs a large very successful accountancy firm in Glasgow, when he was newly qualified and I was one of his first clients he was always pleased that I gave his accounts to trial balance.  I had had a great deal of accountancy training by the beginning of the nineties - so that his job was merely to sign off and submit my accounts.   I even impressed him by having HMRC agree to 5% costs for personal use of my car, something he wasn't able to do!   These days as my accounts are simplicity itself he periodically - not ever yearly - casts an eye over my spreadsheet and I give him a decent bottle of red in payment!  And always happy to chat if I have a query, which I often do.

Though might I say that I am also astonished - that you - as an experienced sole trader - would presume that the costs of a home based business seller on ebay are 'extra overheads associated with selling through ebay are minimal (ebay fees?'  Of course this is not an exhaustive list but there is heating, lighting, car costs, insurances, internet, phones, stationery, office furniture,  accountancy fees (for some), a whole library of reference books (for some) losses incurred when items go missing, cleaning stuffs (I buy a HUGE amount of silver cleaner), scales (my scales cost £795, as insisted by the local trading standards), licences, entry fees for fairs, auction house fees,  and - though I can forgive a 'consultant' for forgetting the two biggest costs for small home eBay business - postage and stock purchases!!

So - not a irrelevant question, it seems!

I do though agree with you - it is a planned strategy.  It is also cack-handed and there will be unintentional consequences.  I also think it is a great shame that eBay is not appreciating private sellers - I am also a private seller and, more importantly,  a buyer - probably in the top 10%  of buyers on eBay UK - so the BPF is yet another huge cost to consider, especially if the BPF is extended to business sellers. 

But, as always, their ball, their field and their rules.