A warning about refunding a buyer too quickly...

[artisanreflection]

It's very rare that a buyer has asked for a refund. Last November there was a situation where the buyer was still waiting for his item even though I'd dispatched it on time. He was still waiting throughout Christmas and after. 

I'd used eBay's postal service booking and royal mail had collected it. Problem was a month later there was no tracking update on royal mail website.

The buyer was very nice about it. I filed a missing claim with royal mail in January, and in the meantime, refunded the buyer. I checked Royal mail some weeks into January, and saw that the missing parcel had mysteriously started tracking again and had been delivered.

When I contacted the buyer, he confirmed he'd received the parcel (albeit a month+ late). He asked if he should refund my refund... I told him not to worry. It wasn't his fault and it wasn't my fault either. What royal mail should have done was contact me when they located the parcel and ask whether it should be returned to me or deliver to customer.  Instead they just sent a letter after delivering it late to the customer. They informed me they'd located and delivered.

That's not why I'm posting today... Last month I refurbished a vintage Walkman recorder (Sony TC-310). I'd previously bought it as "not working" on eBay. I'd spent time repairing it, then recorded a video of it working.  I sold it on eBay. 

The buyer didn't seem overly friendly but weeks went by. Then one day I receive a refund claim from the buyer. Reason: "fast forward and rewind not working".  The buyer wanted to return the machine. I had sold it as "working", so of course I agreed. eBay made me pay the return cost for the buyer to return it. 

I began receiving messages from eBay for me to "don't delay, refund the buyer" (even before I'd received the broken machine back!).

When the machine came back to me a week after the return claim, I inspected it and confirmed the fast forward and rewind were indeed broken! 

I was still getting automated nagging messages from eBay for me to hurry and refund the buyer. I did so. 

After refunding him, I opened the machine up and began looking at the mechanism (I know the part of the mechanism governing fast forward and rewind). I spot something odd, the part responsible had indeed broken, but it had changed colour! 

When Sony made the machine originally, the "hook spring" part was manufactured in white plastic (fragile). The machine I sold to the buyer, I'd 3d printed a new hook spring in red!

But what I saw before me was the original Sony hook spring in white! It was at this point I realised, the seller had returned the Sony TC-310, but it was not the one he'd purchased from me! 

I checked the two drive belts.. I'd fitted new belts on the machine I sold him. Now I was staring at 2 old worn, rubber drive belts!  None of my repairs were present on this returned machine!

So next I checked the serial number, I had a photo of the serial number on the machine I sold him, guess what? It was a completely different serial on the machine he'd sent me back! 

Was this an accident? No. It was deliberate fraud. I reported it to eBay, but the customer support just blamed me for refunding too quickly. I pointed out that had it not been for the nagging emails trying to hurry me to refund, I wouldn't have felt so pressured. But in any case, I never had the slightest idea that I'd been sent a different TCS-310!

I contacted the buyer. He said I must have been confused and had several. I told him I'd only ever had one TCS 310, and it had been purchased on eBay (was still visible on my history). 

The scammer is a significant seller on eBay. He sells a lot of vintage walkmans, cameras etc from the 80s and 90s.

I will never again let eBay pressure me to hurry a refund if the situation arises.

[roger_roger_over_and_nowt]

"I will never again let eBay pressure me to hurry a refund if the situation arises." ?.

Unfortunately the Ebay MBG doesn't currently give you a choice.

The returns process is fully automated,no humans look at it at all.

Once a buyer claims "not as described" (even if a seller states "no returns accepted" and Ebays MBG shows on the listing) the seller has 3 working days to respond,issue a returns label,partial refund or full refund without return.

On day 4 the buyer can ask Ebay to step in and this can result with buyer getting a "forced" full refund,keeping the item and seller then gets a defect.

[*vyolla*]

I don't understand why, if there was a serial number and you'd made a note of it, you didn't check that first when you got your item back? Or was it located inside the item so hard to get to in a hurry?

The usual way foreward in these situations is that the seller accepts the return and gets their item back, if it isn’t their item they then immediately file a report with Actionfraud and get a reference number.

The seller then clicks the "Report a problem" link in the case, selects "Different item returned" as the reason and provides the Actionfraud reference number and report. This stops the automated returns process that would ultimately force the seller to issue a refund.

Then, someone at eBay reviews the case. As to what happens next depends on a few factors - if the buyer has done this before, if the seller is a long standing eBay member who's had no issues like this before etc.  We've seen a good few threads recently here in which the sellers have been in a similar scenario but have not lost out. 

[artisanreflection]

The thing is, the serial number was visible inside the battery compartment. So it was easy to access. Outwardly, there was no indication that it was a different machine and since I've been using eBay for many years without buyers returning stuff, I never imagined that someone would do this.

Because I now have awareness of this kind of fraud, I won't fall into that trap again. 

[*vyolla*]

It's a horrible thing to consider, we do like to see the best in people, but buyers have been cannibalising items for parts for years. It's vital that sellers check any returned items before refunding (I do appreciate that there's a very short time window to do this). 

[eastern-lights]

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@*vyolla* wrote:

It's a horrible thing to consider, we do like to see the best in people, but buyers have been cannibalising items for parts for years. It's vital that sellers check any returned items before refunding (I do appreciate that there's a very short time window to do this). 

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Even if you know the buyer has sent back a different item. Or even a brick. Isn't it the case that you still have to issue a refund? And then complain to Ebay?

[artisanreflection]

The eBay phone support recommended I don't manually issue a refund unless I'm 100 percent sure. He said that if I'd waited for eBay to step in and refund then I could have appealed.

[artisanreflection]

If that's the case then it's clearly weighted in favour of the buyer. 

[*vyolla*]

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@eastern-lights wrote:

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@*vyolla* wrote:

It's a horrible thing to consider, we do like to see the best in people, but buyers have been cannibalising items for parts for years. It's vital that sellers check any returned items before refunding (I do appreciate that there's a very short time window to do this). 

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Even if you know the buyer has sent back a different item. Or even a brick. Isn't it the case that you still have to issue a refund? And then complain to Ebay?

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If the buyer sends back a different item you'd proceed as per instructions in post #3.

[*vyolla*]

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@artisanreflection wrote:

The eBay phone support recommended I don't manually issue a refund unless I'm 100 percent sure. He said that if I'd waited for eBay to step in and refund then I could have appealed.

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That's also an option, but there's no guarantee you'll win on appeal. 

[artisanreflection]

Even with hard evidence, I still don't have any faith in the appeal process. Easier to just be a buyer on eBay. Then you can get away with a lot.

[department28]

'The scammer is a significant seller on eBay. He sells a lot of vintage walkmans, cameras etc from the 80s and 90s.'

Do you expect to see your item amongst his listings, when he thinks the dust has settled? Wondered if you would be able to identify your item - but probably only from its inner workings? This can't have been the first time he's done something like this, so it is a pity he hasn't already been banished from eBay.

Sadly, as they used to say at school, 'it is the small minority that spoil it for the rest'...

[danaher18]

That's disgusting, total scammers, I'm surprised ebay haven't banned him from selling. 

I had one few yrs ago, claimed the item was smashed, I know I pack really carefully, refunded her, then a week later she sold exact same item on ebay!! I am positive it was my item, it was a discontinued  vintage yankee candle holder, very unusual, bought in the States years ago Contacted ebay, I never saw any listing's from her again, she was obviously banned. Lesson learned never refund until you receive your item, just ignore ebay reminders about refunds. All the best. 

[stonecedar]

I had similar to your first scenario, after some time the courier admitted it was lost, so I refund the buyer, and I start the claims process with courier, only for them to suddenly deliver it. Which means my claim with them was closed as they had delivered it, and now the buyer has both item and money.

Unlike your buyer though, mine didn't offer to do the right thing and pay up just kept coming up with excuses because he knew he didn't have to.

I wouldn't have minded too much but I went through so much to restore the item, get the right packaging and even the hassle I had posting it, only to ultimately end up in the same position as if I had just slung it out the window of a moving vehicle.

Lesson learned here as well, in future I will not refund until it's the absolute last second I get to do so and not a moment sooner.

[the-nutwood-collection]

I too got caught out by not inspecting before refunding.

I sell rovings, which are merino fibres combed into a ribbon, folded over and packed inside a poly tube.  A customer returned an order for twenty, and I refunded when they arrived.  When I came to put the items back into stock, I threw one on the scales and it was 18g, not 20g. 

All twenty were the same.  The buyer had removed the roving from the sleeve, torn off a narrow strip from the edge, and inserted the roving back into the sleeve.  I have a tool that inserts the roving into the sleeve because it's difficult to do it manually, but the buyer had managed to do it.

Her haul from the exercise would be 20 thin lengths of roving, each weighing around 2g.  I, on the other hand, had 20 items that were unsaleable. 

I still find it unbelievable that someone would go to so much trouble to steal 40g of fibre - but it's taught me to thoroughly inspect any return before refunding.

[forestfeline62]

I sent a brand new hell bunny dress had the tags too to a buyer who had it for a month then decided she wanted to return it she told ebay the sizing was wrong on the labels so they started a refund .She messaged me and said  she had worn the dress and washed it and that the labels in side for size were wrong and the dress was too small so was returning it .I was suspicious as to why she had washed it as it was brand new never been worn .I sent it in a nice box to protect it ,the buyer sent it back in a small mailing bag all screwed up .When the dress arrived I took photos before I unpacked it and photos of it unpacked ,and it was clear to see washing the dress had caused some damage ,but when I told ebay they didn't want to know ,they refunded the buyer almost immediately and ebay told me that they couldn't determine that the dress was damaged despite me having before and after photos even the packaging they didn't want to see  ,Ebay closed the case wouldn't let me appeal said the case was closed . So I never trust ebay to help sellers ,they just refund no questions asked .So I a dress now that was no longer new so I had to try and resell it as used . The buyer left me  feed back and said the dress was smelly ,more likely she wore it to a party washed it and then wanted a refund ,she knew how easy returns are on ebay . 

[artisanreflection]

eBay rewarding criminals/scammers. I guess it tells you a lot about society when a company operates this way. Then again the system that allows them to operate in this way.

If she ever sells something, buy it, use it and return it.

🤣

Sent from Outlook for Android<>

[artisanreflection]

Really nasty isn't it. One wonders whether they go to a special training school to teach them endless ways to scam people.

I'd never heard of roving. I will look it up.

🤣

Sent from Outlook for Android<>

[*maetrix*]

Typical of ebay...i'm beginning to wonder whether the entire running of this company has been put into the hands of Ai....?

[lucy_farmer]

'....the buyer left me  feed back and said the dress was smelly ,more likely she wore it to a party washed it and then wanted a refund ,.....'

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Unfortunately this sort of thing is far from new ☹️

Over 30 years ago I used to sell hats: Nice  hats for nice  ladies going to nice  weddings 👒.........

The occasional less-than-nice lady would bring that hat back on a monday morning saying she'd 'changed her mind'...... and the inside hat band was now covered with make-up stains from it's having been worn ☹️