Are we adult enough?

[fallen-archie]

A self explanatory story and a fascinating insight to the question so often posed on here in the past, what is or is not offensive.

Uuganaa Ramsay was raised in Mongolia but now lives in Scotland. She has recently been exploring why her ethnicity is linked to Down's syndrome, a condition diagnosed in her son.

"I don't like that word," says a woman sitting opposite me on the train, pointing at the title of the book I am holding. "Horrible word."

It's my memoir, but she doesn't know that. It was me who gave it the one-word title, Mongol.

I chose it because it has a deep meaning for me. It's the word I grew up using to describe who I am, reading it in poems, singing it in songs, writing stories with it and drawing pictures about it - it represents my identity and culture.

"Where are you originally from?' the lady asks. "Mongolia," I say. "Oh, of course. Of course you are," she says. I could see in her face that she had realised something that was now obvious but hadn't previously occurred to her.

The word Mongol is rarely used politely these days and is often unpleasantly shortened to "mong" but how on Earth did my ethnic identity end up becoming a slang word for stupid? Even worse, used by comedians to "push boundaries".
While working at the Royal Earlswood Asylum in the 1860s, John Langdon Down started to categorise the patients known then as "idiots", noting that one group all had a similar appearance. Mentioning a roundness of cheeks, the shape of eyes and other physical traits, he wrote: "A very large number of congenital idiots are typical Mongols."

Julie Coleman, Professor of English at Leicester University, thinks Down is saying "these people have regressed to an earlier state of humanity, which is the state of being Mongolian," noting also that this observation came some seven years after Darwin started to talk about evolution.

The name Mongol stuck even though some of Down's contemporaries doubted the racial theories he documented in the paper Observations on an Ethnic Classification of Idiots.

It wasn't until 1965 that the People's Republic of Mongolia complained to the World Health Organisation that the term was derogatory towards them, and it was replaced with Down's syndrome. The word was still commonly used in the UK in the 1980s.

But though my ethnicity is Mongol, the reason I get emotional is because we lost our three-month-old son, Billy, who was born in 2009 with the condition. Billy had a hole in the heart and died at three months old of a chest infection before being able to have surgery. The two meanings of Mongol collided for me then, causing pain, grief and anger.

When Billy was born it was suggested he may have Down's syndrome but before the tell tale extra chromosome was confirmed by a blood test, one doctor said that the original diagnosis may have been confused because of his ethnicity. So the link remains in people's minds.

For a BBC Radio 4 documentary, I returned to Mongolia after a gap of eight years. I love the country.

Mongolians have a nomadic tradition. I was raised in a yurt on the plains, have herded goat and sheep and journeyed by horse. We are good at adapting to different situations, have good survival skills and traditionally you can turn up at anyone's house and expect to be fed and get a bed.

John Langdon Down first stigmatised Mongols by linking them to the disability and 100 years later, after being widely acknowledged that the word Mongol shouldn't be used in the context of Down's syndrome, people frown on it or campaign against it because they know it's bad.

I started writing a list of countries where the term has been used in a derogatory way or to mean Down's Syndrome. I now have over 20 countries on my list.

I needed to speak up about it and I did by originally writing a book. Some people told me to be more resilient and follow what they did in their culture and just accept it. Some comforted me by saying languages change over time. But the question bugging me was who changes languages, because confusion over the term is still strong.
One half Mexican and half Mongolian person contacted me to say that in the Latino community, the words "Mongolito" and "Mongolita" still have very ugly meanings. "Introducing myself as a half Mongolian to my Hispanic acquaintances proved to be almost embarrassing throughout my teenage years," they said.

And another person from Morocco told me they have a son with Down's syndrome and that neighbours call her Mongolian and throw stones at them in the street. Again someone from South Africa wrote to tell me they were "shocked to find that Mongolians refer to themselves as Mongols when I arrived in Mongolia".

In the US, some Mongolian friends of mine were stopped on the street by a lady insisting they should take their child to a doctor because she suspected he had Down's syndrome. And while on a course in London, my Chinese and French classmates told me: "We didn't know someone from Mongolia could be normal and clever like you."

I want people to know you can use Mongol in the same way as you would refer to a Scot, Turk or Pole. It's fine. We can unlearn negative connotations because we learnt them. You can call me Mongol because I am one.

The Meaning of Mongol airs on BBC Radio 4 on 22 November at 20:00GMT.

[Anonymous]

Interesting post, that makes me think about the following.

I'm Dutch and we have a celebration in Holland called Sinterklaas.

Sinterklaas or Sint Nicolaas is a traditional figure based on Saint Nicholas. Other names for the figure include De Sint ("The Saint"), De Goedheiligman ("The Good Holy Man"), and De Goede Sint ("The Good Saint") in Dutch

Sinterklaas is celebrated annually with the giving of gifts on the night before Saint Nicholas Day (5 December) in the Netherlands and on the morning of 6 December, Saint Nicholas Day itself, in Belgium, Luxembourg, and Northern France (French Flanders, Lorraine and Artois). He is also well known in territories of the former Dutch Empire, including Aruba, Bonaire, Curaçao.

Sinterklaas is an elderly, stately and serious man with white hair and a long, full beard. He wears a long red cape or chasuble over a traditional white bishop's alb and sometimes red stola, dons a red mitre and ruby ring, and holds a gold-coloured crosier, a long ceremonial shepherd's staff with a fancy curled top.

He traditionally rides a white horse. In the Netherlands, the horse is called Amerigo, and in Belgium, it is named Slecht Weer Vandaag, meaning "Bad Weather Today".

Sinterklaas carries a big book that tells whether each child has been good or naughty in the past year.

Zwarte Piet (Black Pete, plural Zwarte Pieten) is a companion of Sinterklaas, usually portrayed by a man in blackface with black curly hair, dressed up like a 17th-century page in colourful dress, often sporting a lace collar and a feathered cap. He first appears in print as the nameless servant of Saint Nicholas in Sint Nikolaas en zijn knecht (St. Nicholas and His Servant), published in 1850 by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman; but the tradition appears to date back at least as far as the early 19th Century.

Sinterklaas and his Black Pete usually carry a bag which contains candy for nice children and a roe, a chimney sweep's broom made of willow branches, used to spank naughty children. Some of the older Sinterklaas songs make mention of naughty children being put in the bag and being taken back to Spain.

There are various explanations of the origin of Zwarte Piet. One is that Saint Nicholas liberated an Ethiopian slave boy called Pieter from a Myra market, and the boy was so grateful he decided to stay with Saint Nicholas as a helper.

In modern adaptations for television, the Saint has developed a Piet for every function: there is a head Piet (Hoofdpiet), a navigation Piet (wegwijspiet) to navigate the steamboat from Spain to the Netherlands, a packing Piet (pakjespiet) to pack all the gifts, an acrobatic Piet to climb roofs and stuff presents down the chimney, or to climb down the chimneys themselves. Over the years many stories have been added, and Zwarte Piet has developed from a rather unintelligent helper into a valuable assistant to the absent-minded Saint.

Traditionally Zwarte Piet's face is said to be black because he is a Moor from Spain. Today, some prefer to say that his face is blackened with soot, as he has to climb through chimneys to deliver his gifts. The figure of Zwarte Piet is considered by some to be racist. Verene Shepherd, chair of United Nations' Working Group on people of African descent, stated in an interview with the Dutch television news program EEN Vandaag on 22 October 2013 that, "The working group cannot understand why it is that the people in The Netherlands cannot see that it is a throwback to slavery . . . .As a black person I feel, that I, if I were living in The Netherlands, I would object to it." The working group started investigations in 2012 and sent questions to the Dutch UN representative in January 2013 .However, after a more thorough investigation it was announced that the UN would drop any 'racism' related charges against the Dutch.

In a 2013 survey, 92% of the Dutch public did not perceive Zwarte Piet as racist or associate him with slavery, and 91% were opposed to altering the character's appearance. Nevertheless, beginning in 2013, several Dutch retail chains including Hema and V&D began changing their seasonal Sinterklaas products and displays in order to include a revised version of Zwarte Piet without the makeup or other racially sensitive characteristics.

More can be read on Wikipedia.

Big discussions are still going on about this and a lot of the Dutch are very upset that a tradition that has been enjoyed by so many children and adults, black and white, has now turned into a big debate on racism.

To the Dutch it's the same as father Christmas with his elves. I'm sure no one would like to see that tradition changed.

[evoman3957]

You can't say what you want to in this World any more. You can't say what you mean in this World any more. You can't speak the truth in this World any more, if the truth is likely to offend ANYBODY and you can't say what needs to be said in this World any more; if by saying it, you offend ANYBODY...............and people wonder why there is so much corruption, double dealing, double talk, fraud, broken promises etc. etc. Ultimately, the Human Race will get what it deserves; if not because they are complicit, then because they are complacent....................ALL the problems suffered by the Human race are self inflicted.

[fallen-archie]

Hello Harry, I have heard stories of zwarte Piet
And there are similar tales around the world.
Trouble is these are things , stories, memories call them what you like, we have a sentimental connection with But they are totally unacceptable to many these days.
I had a conversation last night with a couple I there early 20s, high flying, well educated young professionals with sound heads. I was shocked how intolerant they were of so many things. They see our multi cultural society undermined by our former role as colonial rulers. They were scathing of one elderly pensioner who made a statement they considered stereotyped a particular group. I didn't feel any way stressed but they clearly were.
My story and yours highlight a generation gap.
What we did and the way we acted was considered normal. Today that is no longer the case, we must hide our heads in shame and repent. Despite the fact that at the time no malicious intent was implied.
I have had the deep pleasure of the odd missive from two ebay mods both in their 20s both based offshore and both charged with deciding whether what we write is acceptable in this day and age. Truth is it cannot be we have to change, keep experiences to ourselves and go along with what our younger generations deem appropriate.
At the end of my chat with the couple last night I felt a bit guilty but I also am comfortable that there was no hurtful intent, so often that is the case but some show very little tolerance these days.

[joe_bloggs*]

A few years ago we had a small stall at a local sunday market that sold all sorts,a mother was browsing the stall with her disabled daughter in a wheelchair,I came round to the front and picked something off the stall got down on my kness unwrapped it and gave it to the daughter,the littles girls eyes lit up,the mother thanked me,i said its ok,it just cost coppers,she said no,i mean thank you for just talking to my daughter,well my partner came round the front and got chatting to the mam,told her about my sister who had similar disabilities,the problems with name calling and the mainly older kids who thought spacca and mongol were amusing things to shout from accross the road.Young kids are totally innocent,they don't know what preducice or discrimination are,its the parents who drag the kids away from people with disabilities,without even trying to explain maybe why that person looks or walks the way they do,Its no wonder when we grow to adulthood we react uncomfortably to people with differences.I noticed the charity Scope are doing a range of books for children featuring people with disabilities,well thats one present for my grandson,and as to the question are we adult enough? perhaps some of us try to be too adult and forget about the unbiased,unjudgemental innocence of a childs eye

[fallen-archie]

Thats a nice story, but do you appreciate how difficult it is now to interact with the young or vulnerable because everyone is assumed to be a possible deviant.

Reminds me of the day I went to the supermarket and a boy aged about 7 and his slightly older sister had the most lovely puppy. it was excited and wanted trie to impose itself on all who passed. I reached down to stroke it and the little boy started reciting the puppies history, at this point his sister snatched the puppy with one hand and her brothers arm with the other. she dragged him away telling him off for talking to strangers. Absolutely the right thing to do I suppose but such a shame that things have come to this. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

You can't say what you want to in this World any more. You can't say what you mean in this World any more. You can't speak the truth in this World any more, if the truth is likely to offend ANYBODY and you can't say what needs to be said in this World any more; if by saying it, you offend ANYBODY...............and people wonder why there is so much corruption, double dealing, double talk, fraud, broken promises etc. etc. Ultimately, the Human Race will get what it deserves; if not because they are complicit, then because they are complacent....................ALL the problems suffered by the Human race are self inflicted.

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Tell that to the writers of South Park!

[suzieseaside]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

Thats a nice story, but do you appreciate how difficult it is now to interact with the young or vulnerable because everyone is assumed to be a possible deviant.

Reminds me of the day I went to the supermarket and a boy aged about 7 and his slightly older sister had the most lovely puppy. it was excited and wanted trie to impose itself on all who passed. I reached down to stroke it and the little boy started reciting the puppies history, at this point his sister snatched the puppy with one hand and her brothers arm with the other. she dragged him away telling him off for talking to strangers. Absolutely the right thing to do I suppose but such a shame that things have come to this. 

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 It is a shame, and fear and suspicion that any single person might be a deviant has resulted in some bizarre restrictions IMO.  Only a couple of weeks ago a grandfather was not allowed to visit a falconry display in a park in Somerset because the park has a policy of refusing entrance to unaccompanied adults just in case they might be dodgy characters.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-banned-from-entering-park-on-his-own-because-of-p...

How long before those of us who travel alone might have to phone any attraction in advance to see if we will be allowed in? I don't get it. If children are acompanied by their parents or other adults in charge of them, what is the perceived risk from someone who happens to be on their own? Why not make a rule that all children under 15 must be acompanied by an adult rather than banning all single people from enjoying the park?

[fallen-archie]

That is a sad indictment of 21st century Britain. But you can kind of understand the reluctance of those responsible when they have the power and authority to act not to do so, and I suppose in my day these things remained hidden. However it also begs the question of why more punitive action has not been deemed necessary elsewhere, some schools or care homes spring to mind.. I suppose it comes down to an inability to prevent people becoming perverts and therefore it is necessary to suspect everyone, rather like the police do these days.

[lambsy_uk]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

Thats a nice story, but do you appreciate how difficult it is now to interact with the young or vulnerable because everyone is assumed to be a possible deviant.

Reminds me of the day I went to the supermarket and a boy aged about 7 and his slightly older sister had the most lovely puppy. it was excited and wanted trie to impose itself on all who passed. I reached down to stroke it and the little boy started reciting the puppies history, at this point his sister snatched the puppy with one hand and her brothers arm with the other. she dragged him away telling him off for talking to strangers. Absolutely the right thing to do I suppose but such a shame that things have come to this. 

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This is nothing new, telling kids not to talk to strangers has been going on for yonks!

[lambsy_uk]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
That is a sad indictment of 21st century Britain. But you can kind of understand the reluctance of those responsible when they have the power and authority to act not to do so, and I suppose in my day these things remained hidden. However it also begs the question of why more punitive action has not been deemed necessary elsewhere, some schools or care homes spring to mind.. I suppose it comes down to an inability to prevent people becoming perverts and therefore it is necessary to suspect everyone, rather like the police do these days.

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What we have to remember about perverts is that our concern should not be with who they are, what they are or how they think, but with what they do. We just need to be vigilant!

[joe_bloggs*]

"What we have to remember about perverts is that our concern should not be with who they are, what they are or how they think, but with what they do. We just need to be vigilant!"

Yes of course we have to be vigilant,but we also have to remember these individuals will worm their way into positions of authority over children,sometimes even befriending parents,therefore we have to know and trust implicitly guardians of our children,much stricter background and family checks should be carried out on anyone wishing to work with children in any way,there's just been a documentary on C4,called "The paedophile next door" an ex police officer shows how far too easy paedophiles can interact and groom children online

[upthecreekyetagain]

The vast majority of sexual attacks on both adults and minors are carried out by individuals known to the victim, not strangers.

The perceived risk of an attack is far, far higher than the actual risk.

[joe_bloggs*]

"The vast majority of sexual attacks on both adults and minors are carried out by individuals known to the victim, not strangers"

Yes of course thats true as family or family "friends" are trusted more than a stranger,but i think abuse through online grooming is becoming much more of a problem,due to the seeming ease abusers have access to chat forums which youngsters use,Parents i think will have to somehow monitor their childs online use more stringently,and report any suspicious activities to the local police,saying that its probally easier said than done to try and monitor kids internet use!

[lambsy_uk]

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@joe_bloggs* wrote:

"What we have to remember about perverts is that our concern should not be with who they are, what they are or how they think, but with what they do. We just need to be vigilant!"

Yes of course we have to be vigilant,but we also have to remember these individuals will worm their way into positions of authority over children,sometimes even befriending parents,therefore we have to know and trust implicitly guardians of our children,much stricter background and family checks should be carried out on anyone wishing to work with children in any way,there's just been a documentary on C4,called "The paedophile next door" an ex police officer shows how far too easy paedophiles can interact and groom children online

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There are already background checks carried out, I had to be checked out, along with all other parents, just to be able to go on a Family camp with the Scouts. What further checks do you suggest?

[saasher2012]

I suppose checks only work if they are known about,it must be very difficult if they have no background history.

[evoman3957]

What's worrying and problematic, is that although background checks are necessary; they are not preventing the problem, because they only show up those that have previous history that is KNOWN about...............most of those now coming out of the woodwork have no previous history ( and I'm not talking about suspicions, I'm talking about PROVED previous history ).

[evoman3957]

Snap saasher...........I was busy typing ( with one finger ) when you posted your reply.

[saasher2012]

lol.👏

[lambsy_uk]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
I suppose checks only work if they are known about,it must be very difficult if they have no background history.

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Yes and no history means no known crime committed, which is good!