Where did it all start?

[cee-dee]

Religion that is?

I was prompted to think of this by a post on the "artifacts" thread with a word that jumped out..... Satan.

Religions often seem connected with the sky, sensational natural events or "something up there" so did it all begin with Man thinking that things "up in the sky" or catastrophic events were controlled by some celestial beings?

Religions that have survived for some thousands of years seem to be somehow connected with vaguely similar beliefs. And then it starts to get complicated..............

Most know how The Serpent (Satan in disguise) tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the Forbidden Fruit but how about The Peacock Angel otherwise known as as Shaitan, or Satan?

God is supposed to have forbidden Adam to eat the Wheat but when The Peacock Angel visited Adam and asked him if he'd eaten the grain, Adam is supposed to have replied "No, God forbade me." The Peacock Angel is then supposed to have persuaded Adam to eat the grain which angered God.

Now The Peacock Angel was supposed to be the first of seven Archangels created by God but fell from favour because after telling the Archangels never to bow to any being, when God created Adam from dust (!!) and was told to bow to Adam, The Peacock Angel refused saying that God had already told him (he's male then?) not to bow to any being. God threw The Peacock Angel in to Hell where he remained for (this is where it gets a bit vague) variously 7,000 or 40,000 years after which time he either quenched the fires of Hell with his tears or filled seven jars with his tears with which he quenched the fires of Hell after which God forgave him and reinstated him.

Now what's all this got to do with Satan or the artifacts thread? Only that I mentioned Göbekli Tepe and that people who revere The Peacock Angel recognise some of the symbols found on some of the stones at Göbekli Tepe so have a think about that convoluted story eh?

[upthecreekyetagain]

"The existence of an induvidual soul in every human being can never be disputed"

"All we can know is that our soul existed before we did and will continue to exist when we are gone."

I'm sorry but I very much dispute the existence of a soul and I certainly don't believe that any part of our consciousness will continue to exist following our death.

[cee-dee]

Faith? Now there's a word? It depends upon what you have faith in?

Is religious faith any different than the faith the natives had in the word of the witchdoctor who told them the White Man's bullets couldn't hurt them?

As to your eternal journey, when yer dead, yer dead and that's the end of it.

[joamur_gosof]

like the ice age journey ?

I do not think it is a needed teaching 'how to be at peace with yourself and the world ,its a healthy option to do so agreed, its also perfectly fine to need to be in a group to find that peace.  Now what has superbeings got to do with it ?

[joamur_gosof]

lol..3 atheists at once ..good luck with that 🙂 

[astrologica]

I find that so sad...that you and your church think that your brother is living a life of 'error'. He was made that way, and if you think that we humans are created by God, then he was created that way by your God. A member of my family is gay, and I love that person even more for it. Being born that way makes life even harder for them, without being told they live a life of 'error' and should change their ways. None of us are perfect...we are all 'sinners' in one way or another. As Harry said....live and let live.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Are you a disfellowshipped JW CD?

[astrologica]

Four Atheists Jo!😀

[astrologica]

Yes, the thread did get diverted a little by my mentioning the JW's attitude to Gay people, and I apologise for that CD. But that is just another example of how religions try and control people and how they live their lives.

[cee-dee]

Oh heck, certainly not!!!

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

Oh heck, certainly not!!!

Well in that case, I may if you permit converse with you. But having said that I have no way of knowing that what you are telling me is true, have I. 

If I thought for a moment that you were, then no I should not be on here discussing things with you so it is a matter of consience too. 

I judged your way of discussing things with me as a discussion and nothing else so if you have questions and points to make then I felt it OK to converse with you.

[cee-dee]

True, you have no way of knowing that when I say I've never been a JW, that I haven't so been. It should be abundantly clear from what I've said over the years that I never will be either?

However, your own "rules" dictate that you shouldn't be discussing things with me and that's quite clear from The Watchtower.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I wish someone would tell that to the JWs who are constantly wknocking on my door!!!

We have the misfortune of living just 3 doors away from here!!

[cee-dee]

You said earlier that "There is a general misunderstanding that Islam as a religion started with the prophet Muhammad whislt in fact the Islamic religion was aready in existence when he was born with Noah, Abraham, Jesus etc all prophets of Islam. "

The Islamic religion wasn't in existence before Mohammad. Mecca was mostly pagan and had a variety of idols.... It was he who picked out bits of Judaeism and Christinity that suited then mixed and matched with his own sayings and distortions claiming he'd been "told" what he said was "the word of god".

It seems that when he was in his cave getting these revelations, he also suffered some sort of seizures......

He was "a bit upset" with the pagan people who drove him out of Mecca because they didn't care for his opinions so he went to Medina where he raised an army of followers.....

He vowed to annihilate the Jews and Christians who rejected what he was saying.....

Some of the goings-on after that are pretty controversial..... and so it went on and still goes on to this day? Peaceful huh?

[Anonymous]

Creeky, all you need to do is tell them you are a Buddhist. Or maybe put a big Buddha next to your front door. It works.

My mum has had an interest in the Bible all her life and whoever came to the door preaching was invited in for a coffee and a chat.

She always told them she would never join any of them. She never did.

She has two good friends, which are JW. They visit her just for a chat and brew and so now and then when my mum has certain questions they will tell her what their teachings say about it. They totally accept that she will never become a JW. They know they would waste their time as my mum has had good contacts with other JW throughout her life.

She is also part of another group, I think it's called the Alpha group, which is much more free than most. The JW friends know about that and have no problem with it. It's the same in all religions, some are more fanatical than others.

[margaret*e]

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@cee-dee wrote:

If truth be known, religion is really a comfort zone or a "place" of refuge in times of a need felt by an "embattled" populace.

---

A lot of truth in that.

The majority of praying to(whichever) god takes place when people are troubled.

My MIL, a devout catholic, always said she would never have got through her extremely hard life without her faith in God.

In reality it was her own strong will and character got her through.

[Anonymous]

To no one in particular, just some interesting info.

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/100208_religion.htm

http://www.cf.ac.uk/socsi/undergraduate/introsoc/durkheim6.html

http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/12/wealth-may-have-driven-rise-today-s-religions

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

You said earlier that "There is a general misunderstanding that Islam as a religion started with the prophet Muhammad whislt in fact the Islamic religion was aready in existence when he was born with Noah, Abraham, Jesus etc all prophets of Islam. "

The Islamic religion wasn't in existence before Mohammad. Mecca was mostly pagan and had a variety of idols.... It was he who picked out bits of Judaeism and Christinity that suited then mixed and matched with his own sayings and distortions claiming he'd been "told" what he said was "the word of god".

It seems that when he was in his cave getting these revelations, he also suffered some sort of seizures......

He was "a bit upset" with the pagan people who drove him out of Mecca because they didn't care for his opinions so he went to Medina where he raised an army of followers.....

He vowed to annihilate the Jews and Christians who rejected what he was saying.....

Some of the goings-on after that are pretty controversial..... and so it went on and still goes on to this day? Peaceful huh?

---

The point I was making was that Islam as a religion didn't just spring up as a brand new religion - in exactly the same way that Christianity was an evolution of Judaeism, Christ being the prophesised Messiah of that religion.

Mohammad spent time in 'retreat' in much the same way that Jesus spent forty days in the desert.  Most of the converts to Islam came from followers of Judaeism and some Christians.  I'm not sure where you get the idea that he vowed to annihilate Jews and Christians??

The conflicts with the Jews was an Arab Jewish conflict rather than an Islam Jewish one and existed prior to the formalisation of Islam as a religion.  The Jews are 'descended' from Isaac son of Abraham whereas the Arabs are 'descendents' of Ishmael, Abrahams first son.   The Arabs believed that Ishmael was the 'blessed' son of Abraham and inheritors of the 'promised land' whereas the Jews believed the same of Isaac.

In the early days of Islam as a formal religion Christianity and Judaeism were considered as 'protected' religions.  It was paganism and idolatory that were the main opponents of Islam and this conflict explains a lot about the attitude Islam has to depictions of 'holy' figures.

[cee-dee]

There's loads of verses where severe violence is recommended, here's one:-

Koran, 9:30

 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

How about this?:-

Koran, 5:33 "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

BBL, gotta go.

[cee-dee]

It seems to me that the original meaning to the verses are vague and open to interpretation.

I've just read 50 (yes 50) versions of the same verse by 50 diiferent people and although the meaning in general is similar, the words used are often different.

Also, there are words which are the same but have a different meaning in a different context like English has words which have the same spelling with different meanings depending on how it's used.

However, although I don't read or speak Arabic, the explanations I've read lead me to conclude that when there are many words in the sentence (or verse) which are open to interpretation, a direct translation becomes a bit difficult. In fact, some of the translations would lead an unscholarly reader to believe some of the things can be twisted to mean anything you like depending on your point of view!

[joamur_gosof]

so what the plan is (and my personal quest with the sumarian tablet translations) is un muddling it all and getting the original thing written...hence why I think it is really worth dugging and digging so we can scrub away at the mad conquerers and prophets interpretation and actually see where and why and who and what....but first as you suggested ..When 🙂