Where did it all start?

[cee-dee]

Religion that is?

I was prompted to think of this by a post on the "artifacts" thread with a word that jumped out..... Satan.

Religions often seem connected with the sky, sensational natural events or "something up there" so did it all begin with Man thinking that things "up in the sky" or catastrophic events were controlled by some celestial beings?

Religions that have survived for some thousands of years seem to be somehow connected with vaguely similar beliefs. And then it starts to get complicated..............

Most know how The Serpent (Satan in disguise) tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the Forbidden Fruit but how about The Peacock Angel otherwise known as as Shaitan, or Satan?

God is supposed to have forbidden Adam to eat the Wheat but when The Peacock Angel visited Adam and asked him if he'd eaten the grain, Adam is supposed to have replied "No, God forbade me." The Peacock Angel is then supposed to have persuaded Adam to eat the grain which angered God.

Now The Peacock Angel was supposed to be the first of seven Archangels created by God but fell from favour because after telling the Archangels never to bow to any being, when God created Adam from dust (!!) and was told to bow to Adam, The Peacock Angel refused saying that God had already told him (he's male then?) not to bow to any being. God threw The Peacock Angel in to Hell where he remained for (this is where it gets a bit vague) variously 7,000 or 40,000 years after which time he either quenched the fires of Hell with his tears or filled seven jars with his tears with which he quenched the fires of Hell after which God forgave him and reinstated him.

Now what's all this got to do with Satan or the artifacts thread? Only that I mentioned Göbekli Tepe and that people who revere The Peacock Angel recognise some of the symbols found on some of the stones at Göbekli Tepe so have a think about that convoluted story eh?

[cee-dee]

I think it's quite "nice" to argue points in a discussion without personal insults or people geting angry?

The Prophets of old were able to prophecise about things they could think of, you don't see prophecies about things in current modern usage and some old prophecies were so vague they could be "turned" to mean several things?

[Anonymous]

No JD  it doesn't seem a convincing read.

It all comes down to that we all have our own ideas on the matter, that we have no proof one way or the other and that we all have our own truths, our own beliefs and opinions. That should be the end of it, but we so want to convince each other that our truth is the right one, and there is where we all go wrong. What is true to ourselves is all that matters in life and we should leave it at that. Live and let live.

[joamur_gosof]

True that vague can be swished to fit ,but ascension could be a prophecy that will come true..people taking to the heavens for saviour .....think about spacestation experiments and escape routes ...there are quite a few that are written that pretty much described the end of Egyptian dynasty  ....but yes they can mean lots of things................here is a good one and true..my mother once told me in 1980 that she had read Nostradamus and he had said giant birds from the east will hit a tall tower...she then added her own interp and said the japanese will fly planes into the eiffel tower.

Well thats a fact word for word...I say prophecy ,then there are people I know who saw doris stokes who they then always swore by as she told them daft stuff like day the cat was going to get run over to aunty edna who died last year  borrowed the hairdryer so you can end the 45 year old feud with your sister.....these things make curious world,and as mentioned a superstition .

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

It was you who simply said that astro was wrong.

If you needed to explain fully, you should have said more than you did.

My post was from a JW page which clearly says such people should be shunned if they refused to remain celibate.

---

Yes, sorry CD, point taken.

I do forget people probably don't remember an individuals previous posts on long ago threads. It is just I do recall posting answers to this many times, I remember doing it but many don't because they are discussing all kinds of topics.

[cee-dee]

OK.

Now, when are you going to properly enter a discussion and make some attempt to refute points made by others and how they relate to what you're involved with?

Do you deny that many of the points made are part of discovered history and if so, will you explain how they differ from what you believe to be so?

I realise you don't have to but you entered the thread and reminded us of your belief so you saying simply that what you believe is "right" isn't in any way good enough to disprove or discredit known facts.

Perhaps also, you'd tell us all what you think your "elders" (is that the right word?) would say if they entered a discussion such as this? Would they calmly deal with things point by point or dismiss it all as nonsense written by a bunch of heathens and not have any truck with it because (some of us) are not of your sort and shun us?

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@astrologica wrote:
I don't think so Busty....did you not post on here in the past that a member of your family is cast out because he is gay? That he is a 'sinner'? I don't want to discuss this in detail...this is CeeDee's thread, about where religion began, and I wouldn't want to hi-Jack it.
But you cannot be a JW and be gay.....is that not correct?

---

I have posted you an answer to this on several occasions Astro yes. But you do seem to forget some of the more important points I answer you. Just bringing out the ones that you know will be taken in a negative way. My brother yes is gay, I love him very much and always have, and he is always made to feel welcome. I have just stated I cannot accept his lifestyle which he accepts and respects and keeps it to himself. And visa versa, I respect his choice to not have me speak of my beliefs and he lives as he chooses.

You are correct though that any JW  who chooses to continue a gay lifestyle is not allowed take the name, but never is a person unloved and disfellowshipping is always a last resort with the hope that that they will eventually see the error and want to come back.Which if they do are welcomed with open arms and great rejoicing. Because it means there life (everlasting)

So you can see that the descision taken to disfellowship is done because they are loved and cherished and no one wants them to loose there wanderful opportunity of living forever in pease and security.

If I knew that someone I loved was heading in the direction of serious danger and knew the way they needed to go to be safe but did nothing to inform of the correct road/path and they lost their life or was seriously hurt, that would not be love on my part would it?

As for hyjacking CD's thread Astro, I believe you did that when you took the opportunity to have your little say about me stating JW's are peaceable and loving. I did feel I had to reply to you Astro.

So I will apologise to CD myself and not go OT and continue with going into the morals of the subject.

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

OK.

Now, when are you going to properly enter a discussion and make some attempt to refute points made by others and how they relate to what you're involved with?

Do you deny that many of the points made are part of discovered history and if so, will you explain how they differ from what you believe to be so?

I realise you don't have to but you entered the thread and reminded us of your belief so you saying simply that what you believe is "right" isn't in any way good enough to disprove or discredit known facts.

Perhaps also, you'd tell us all what you think your "elders" (is that the right word?) would say if they entered a discussion such as this? Would they calmly deal with things point by point or dismiss it all as nonsense written by a bunch of heathens and not have any truck with it because (some of us) are not of your sort and shun us?

---

Hi CD,

I have done many times entered a discussion and refuted in the best way I know how.......lol only to have others call out what I say to be stupid or not true or what ever.... I can handle that, as it is just you and others not choosing to believe it.

As for history, there are many things in history where our views are different I don't think I deny history but I would differ  in some of the conclusions you would come to because of the history. (not really sure whether you get what I am trying to say there) I know I am not so articulate with the English language as some lol. Where history is concerned there is always a good explanation behind facts and conclusions it is down to us individually to either dismiss or be convinced.

CD,  yes the older men who take the lead are called Elders, and if they were here and you were happy to have a discussion they would try to the best of there ability and knowledge to calmly deal with things point by point, You would never be shunned, I never shun, what I do have to admit to is with some people I choose not to associate because of our differences in beliefs, but I really do think that is hunning, they are still human beings and entitled to be respected as such. I would say you do the same, you won't associate with certain people for whatever reason but I don't think you are shunning, just choosing your asscociates wisely so to speak. 

[joamur_gosof]

There are religions (including Buddhism and Taoism), in fact, that classify some of their followers as agnostic, atheistic, or nontheistic. The true opposite of "religious" is the word "irreligious". Irreligion describes an absence of any religion; antireligion describes an active opposition or aversion toward religions in general.

Look what I found creeky lol

No wonder religion is a mish mash ,no one actually seems to know the true meaning of even the word let alone why all the millions of alternate practice came about .

One link said prophets with charisma made the difference between long term religions and short term ones ,and I got this bit...;; an abundance of prophets appeared at an age when the civilized societies were at a loss to why evrything kept going wrong and needed some imput for thier own stability.   hmmm  thats a beginning is it not ?

[joamur_gosof]

damn forgot to put speech brackets in first paragraph and a ^ next to my lol ...sorry 

[joamur_gosof]

and now its saying the word originates from law in the human sense ...,this looks like civilized laws became befuddled by prophets claims

[cee-dee]

According to your "rules" you shouldn't be discussing things with me (and some others) at all because The Watchtower says that those who make themselves not of your sort by deliberately rejecting the faith and beliefs of JWs should be treated the same as those who've been disfellowshipped for wrong-doing!!!!!

How'd you react to that?

[upthecreekyetagain]

There's not really a problem with the 'true meaning of the word' religion - the 'problem' is that many misuse the word 🙂

The start of religion is very much a chicken and egg situation - as Harry's link suggested one reason for the introduction and take up of a religious belief is that doing so introduces a structure to a loosely grouped society, allowing its growth by introducing a moral structure and possibly even more importantly assisting in the formation of a military with soldiers willing to die for their Gods.

The other scenario is that a stable society provides the opportunity for the establishment of tradition and a 'priest' class.  Belief by an individual in a superior being is superstition - that same belief practiced by a group is a religion.

I tend to go with the former scenario - all the 'successful' religions have been patronised by the ruling classes, those that aren't continue with a small number of adherents and tend to be classed as cults rather than religions.  Christianity only really 'took off' following Constantine's approval which coincidentally came about at a time when he needed his army to be successful. 

Judaeism became the established religion of the Jews when Moses needed to control an increasingly restless population. 

There is a general misunderstanding that Islam as a religion started with the prophet Muhammad whislt in fact the Islamic religion was aready in existence when he was born with Noah, Abraham, Jesus etc all prophets of Islam.   Following the prophecies and teachings of Muhammad the Islamic Empire saw a period of rapid expansion taking in most of the Middle East, North Africa and Spain.

[cee-dee]

If truth be known, religion is really a comfort zone or a "place" of refuge in times of a need felt by an "embattled" populace.

[joamur_gosof]

Yep ,its becoming clear that superstitions are from the off of evolution..ie uncanny happenings ,folk that see clearly the next week and inventors  etc ...and then a long time in (say about 6 to 7000 years maybe more human leadership saw an opportunity to get help with expansions (probably for more wealth of whatever commodity was the in ) by saying god is law.

The 2 are now interchangable and sure as 'the ice age is coming'  should not be .

[upthecreekyetagain]

I don't believe that is the case CD - religions in general don't appear to have percolated upwards to the ruling classes but rather imposed on the general population by those in charge.

[joamur_gosof]

spot on CD .

[joamur_gosof]

Oh I agree with cd as its founding motive ...not its evolve though.

[soppysofty]

Have we not all lost the plot in some way?

Religion is best described as an interpretation of Faith.

Faith is the belief in God.

As each man (and woman) is different so our interpretation of Faith will be different.

Many people share the same religion because it makes sense to them as an interpretation of thier Faith.

True 'Religion" is born of true Faith which, by definition, can only be spritual and not of this world or of human understanding.

In order to find my own true faith I need to get in touch with the spirit within me which is my soul.

The soul is an intricate part of the human psyche which science etc. has never been able to understand.

The existence of an induvidual soul in every human being can never be disputed.

Some call it concience, some call it the fourth dimension, some call it sixth sense.

Getting in touch with our own soul through awareness of the working of the Spirit within us is the only true religion.

To this end most 'religions' try to show a way to get in touch with our own spiritual side but fail as we are all human and the baseness of our own lives takes over.

We become so entangled in the material and our own 'social standing' that we lose sight of the spiritual that is both within us and without.

By taking time out from this world (a retreat) we give ourselves a chance to get in touch with our spirit/soul and so draw closer to a new life.

The question of where we came from or where we are going is academical as nobody knows.

All we can know is that our soul existed before we did and will continue to exist when we are gone.

It therefore follows that by getting in touch with our inner soul we draw closer to God and the true reason for our being.

Who knows, we may even be able to prepare for the next stage of our eternal journey?

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@joamur_gosof wrote:

Oh I agree with cd as its founding motive ...not its evolve though.

---

It's not until a cult or group of superstitions become offically recognised that a religion is born.  Certainly all the major religions of the modern World only continue to exist because leaders in the past found religion to be useful in holding onto and increasing their power.

'Religions' that didn't have that support, such as paganism, are no longer considered by most as viable nor even as a religion.

[cee-dee]

If it wasn't for "the ruling classes" there'd have been very little "organised" religion. Yes, the upper crust used it as a means of control but the ignorant masses use it as a comfort zone.

Upper crust benefactors have contributed but "the poor" have donated their time, effort and money they could ill afford after being convinced of the need to build and "do good".