OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Of course any projections about what would happen if we leave the EU are simply conjectures - that is why I don't understand why those arguing the case for either side can't seem to say how they believe 40+ years of membership of the EU has directly affected them as individuals or how they believe/hope staying or leaving will affect them in the future.

With respect both your's and Lynda's posts don't specify how the situations you outline have had an effect on you directly - I accept that both sides of the argument can cite situations where membership of the EU has been they believe a 'good' or 'bad' influence in general terms. 

Lynda mentioned opening a bank account, now changes in doing that could be classed as something that has a drect impact - coincidentally my wife opened a bank account with Santander for the local Rainbow group she runs, took one form and about ten minutes - a week later the account was set up and bank cards issued for three people.  Now I accept she may have been lucky, it may be different for an individual and so on and so on - the point is that if EU regulations have made it more difficult then I haven't personally experienced it but  am willing to listen to those who actually have rather than just general comments that there is a problem.

[******lynda******]

The effect on me directly was loss of income. If you can't sell the catch, but must chuck it away because we have agreed to buy fish caught on the uk west coast by Spanish, Dutch etc fishermen, then that is a loss of income. The foreign boats also caught undersized fish and took them home. Holland had one fishery officer for its entire fleet, policing foreign boats, not their own. We had FOs in every port, just policing uk boats.

[fallen-archie]

I keep looking, I can see how things have changed negatively for some, Fishermen for example have suffered from sharing with others, however modern fishing techniques and fish finding equipment don't give fish much of a chance to escape. Who is to say stocks would have lasted longer? There was once a huge Herring fleet, that managed to kill itself by over fishing long before the EU surfaced indeed the greatest weight of fish landed occurred at the end of the 19th Century. The Spanish on the other hand fish for Tuna with a rod, not fine mesh net which depletes all stocks.
Oysters were once the working mans fodder, industrialisation causing polluted water, soon did away with that again long before the EU.
Our car industry as I remember it was killed by firstly left wing Union leaders followed by the rise of Japanese imports. Nuclear power and fracking which collectively could secure our energy needs for the future are both heavily opposed from within.
Put simply we are a fickle bunch and there is little we approve of.

[aernethril]

The issue with fishing affects all uf us directly because it has resulted in higher seafood prices, loss of fishing stock and less choice of regional seafood.

One change that did affect me personally, not yet mentioned, was a change to the Employment laws concerning temp workers back in 2010 /2011.

It gave even more rights to temp workers bringing them onto the same level as permanent sfaff after only 12 weeks, and you may think that would have  been a good thing.

I knew it wouldn't be and that proved to be the case. 

Before then the employment laws had improved working terms and contracts for temp workers to a very good degree.  Suddenly it was all getting out of hand and it meant that contracts were 'adjusted' and longer term contract work dried up and hourly rates were reduced as low as they could go on the day the new laws came into being, to make up for how the agencies and employers were manoevering to be within the law but deny temp workers not just the new rights but also reduce the ones they had beforehand.

So, although of course there is no guarantee that any employment laws would be brought in to be roughly in line with what we have, should we leave the EU, there is no reason why there couldn't be productive UK Employment laws which even improve on what are the current impositions.

And today there was a snippet of news on employment.

Unemployment has risen by 21,000 to £1,7m which may sound not so good but apparently we have 31.4m in work = 5.1% jobless.

BUT - almost half of all new jobs that are created within the EU are taken by people from other EU member states.

So the UK is still creating jobs, but not only are nearly half of these going to people outside of the UK, we don't know how much of those earnings are sent 'home' to other member states.

[artful_dodgings]

I am acquainted with someone who works in the hotel industry. Among their staff there are four Polish workers. These individuals get free board and lodgings - live in, all found. They never go out, therefore are adding zilch to the local economy. Two days a week, staff have free use of the hotel leisure centre. They are the only four members of staff who make use of this facility. Apart for a few quid for toiletries, their entire wages are posted home. Two are restaurant staff, two kitchen employees. They are not paid any less than English staff doing the same jobs, as is sometimes mooted. The individual I know works in accounts, so she knows this to be a fact.

I have no reason to believe that they are unique. There must be hundreds more doing exactly the same thing.

[fallen-archie]

I too use temp workers so I understand the frustration surrounding the 13 week thing, however there is nothing to stop you asking for new temps and letting the others go, after all they are temporary staff. Alternatively there is the wonderful zero hours contract, ring em up if you're busy, work em till you don't need them then tell em you will get in touch when you need them again. You are right to feel frustrated that in a market led economy there are rigid rules regarding employment, who is to blame though, the EU for trying to set a level playing field or the commercial business seeking a competitive edge? We live in a world where an Orange for christmas is no longer enough though many would like it to be.

As for Poles taking advantage, they pay tax and NI, there are currently 1.7ml Brits claiming unemployment benefit and very large number who are living off there parents. Like it or not if they refuse to function then so too will many businesses.

If the Poles choose to send some of their earnings home they are only trying to do their best for their families and frankly there is nowt wrong with that.

[baybizz]

>> #306: As I understand it the idea that Greece was unprepared to enter the EU is a myth - at least in financial terms...

That's correct - the problems started later when Greece entered the straitjacket of the euro currency with disguised weak economic figures. The EU establishment was so anxious to give the impression that the euro was a new wonder milk and honey currency, by including as many countries as possible in its initial launch, that it turned a blind eye to the economic facts in Greece:      

>> Greece’s membership of the euro gave it access to billions of easy credit, which it was then incapable of paying back, leading to its current crisis...

>> Lenders took its euro membership as a stamp of creditworthiness, but the true state of its economy was in  fact far less healthy...

>> Wall Street bank helped to hide Greece's debts when it joined the euro currency... Greece paid hundreds of millions of dollars to the bank to secure its position in the single currency...

www.independent.co.uk/greece-hid-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926

[joe_bloggs*]

interesting article in the Guardian:

"Why our landed gentry are so desperate to stay in the EU"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2016/apr/21/why-our-landed-gentry-are-so-desperate-t...

Farms are not called “uneconomic” in the same way that pits and factories are. So every British household coughs up about £250 a year and hands it over to the EU, which hands it over to people like the Duke of Westminster – already worth £7bn himself. In 2011, the duke received £748,716 in EU subsidies for his various estates. So, too, Saudi Prince Bandar (he of the dodgy al-Yamamah arms deal), who pocketed £273,905 of EU money for his estate in Oxfordshire. The common agricultural policy is socialism for the rich. It’s a mechanism to buttress the aristocracy – who own a third of the land in this country – from the chill winds of economic liberalism.

[artful_dodgings]

And now we have Obama poking his interfering proboscis in, and telling us we should stay in the EU. A bit rich coming from someone who's mission statement is 'The Land of the Free'.

And the Yanks espousing advice to anyone is a bit perverse. The only decent and sensible thing to come out of America are the Simpsons.

[evoman3957]

We've got a " SPECIAL " relationship with them don't you know.............they say " Jump " and we say " How high Boss ".  We'll be top of their list to trade with, if we're in the EU, but bottom if we're on our own says " Buddy " Barak and nobody needs a History lesson to know, that the reason they entered WW2 and as he says " Gave their blood along side our Guys " is because the Japs Bombed the **** out of Pearl Harbour. If that hadn't happened, they'd now be looking for a trade agreement with the Third Reich.  Will we EVER know who our friends REALLY are..........Sad to be SO naive !!

[suzieseaside]

Quite so, and his 'advice' to Britain is no doubt because of US interests, not this 'special' bull . 

His comment about us being at the back of a trading queue if we leave the EU sounds a bit like a threat!

I think his participation in the debate could irritate a lot of people and could backfire. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Not sure that Obama's "back of the queue" is a threat, sounds more like reality - I can't see the US, China, Brazil or India falling over themselves to trade with the UK whilst they are negotiating trade deals with the EU.

I'm sure they would deal with us if we leave but we are kidding ourselves if we think we'd be a priority, (front of the queue).

[fallen-archie]

True, we no longer have the clout to do much without support from others. When we had an Empire it was the best of both worlds, we had easy access to resources and they did as they were told. This is what we have to get over, it is not all about us for as important as we are there are others demanding a say in life too. We have to learn how to challenge what we don't like and put forward plausible arguments to support what we do. As a nation we are strong, capable, inventive and brave the perfect ingredients to lead others, standing alone we are seen as an arrogant bunch deserving of a kick.

[cee-dee]

The arrogance continues in many fields.

I think our biggest mistake in years past was showing other "countries" how to do things. They then copied then realised they could improve on what we'd shown them then they decided to to show us what they could do but not how they did it!

[john.b74]

I want out. I cant stick people making new laws that suit them.The people should be asked first.

[start-the-fire]

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Not sure that Obama's "back of the queue" is a threat, sounds more like reality - I can't see the US, China, Brazil or India falling over themselves to trade with the UK whilst they are negotiating trade deals with the EU.

I'm sure they would deal with us if we leave but we are kidding ourselves if we think we'd be a priority, (front of the queue).

---

namely Germany and France, because looking at the other member states they are not exactly solid trading partners to the US.

wait till albania, turkey,montenegro, bosnia and serbia join, it will add little to the commercial strength of the EU (as in a majority of existing members), Just more sqabbling and years to get the simplist of things done. The EU will never reform  itself and continue to be come an obese bureaucratic nightmare, oops forgot it already is.

Question time the other night paddy ashdown saying how close our US allies were and how they came to our rescue in 2 world wars- No Disrespect to those who fought and died in those wars, but politically they were glorified arms dealers, coming to help 2 to  3years late in each great war, pushed in by direct attacks on themselves, including Germany declaring war on them in the second.

A poll of 10000 71% were basically put off by obamas comments leaving the EU would see us at the back of the que, 23% agreed.

Maybe some will see the UK as arrogant for leaving, though something has to give, maybe its the shake up the  eu needs, but i cant see there being any reform, Germanys in control with France as their lapdog, maybe leaving will see the disintegration of what has become unfit for purpose.

[******lynda******]

There are more farms in the hands of ordinary people. The subsidy actually helps keep prices down for the housewife. Farmers could not afford to sell their stock for so little without the subsidy, and even with it, many now struggle. Once upon a time, if you could afford the set up cost of dairy farming, you would get a decent return. Besides, the French got subsidy first. Most of their farms were, unlike uk, inefficient and most French farmers also had a job. If you are going to have a common market, you need to level the playing field. I expect much of the subsidy goes to the tenant farmers on the landed gentry estates, rather than into the landowners pocket.

[evoman3957]

Add to that, the fact that if we vote to stay in ; that will give Brussels a " green light " forever more, because there won't be another chance..............and if you give ANY organization ( good or bad ) a " green light " they see that as acceptance to carry on with what they are doing AND implement any future plans they have in the pipeline...........that's how they'll read the vote and anybody who can't see that, better start opening their Eyes.

[fallen-archie]

Not sure I understand the logic there. Yes if we leave it will send a message but then what? The only way we can truly influence the debate is by having a voice. Most supporting us leaving do so sighting one or two main objections, Take the recent UKIP PPB, there were just two things rammed home on their broadcast, Immigration and Nigel Farage. Boris Johnson always talks about sovereignty, then there are those who worry about what we put in and what we take out Based solely I might add upon a simple taxpayer cost there is no mention of added value possibly because there isn't any, I think that assumption is flawed. The final major concern is accountability and this imho is the key. With the broadening of the community to it's present membership it is far more difficult for France and Germany to call the shots, others are asking the same questions we do, Eurocrats need reining in and that IS acheivable regardless of how cynical your views are. Ultimately I cannot see any benefit to ourselves or the rest of Europe if the block disintegrates, a break up will leave each trying to be the lowest bidder, tax havens again on our doorstep and criminals running the weaker economies, rather like our banks. My eyes are open but the big picture could be more complex than us leaving might appear.

[evoman3957]

Messages will be sent either way, whether we leave or stay; I'm just saying that if we vote to stay, we're verifying " Guilt by association ".........in that we would have voted to be a part of it.  This having more power & influence, if we stay, IMO is a fallacy , in the future; if we don't like something and want it changed.......the powers that be, will simply say that we had voted to stay in so " lump it " and after all, what COULD we do about it anyway ?? Voting to leave, DOES require some degree in having faith and confidence in our Country; but, as I've said, we hold 50% of the EU's Nuclear capability / deterrent ( couldn't possibly be why the US want us to stay could it ) they really don't want to get dragged into defending a European Country AGAIN ( and DRAGGED they were, BOTH times ).  We are still the architects of cutting edge technology and that includes surveillance, medical research and IT.  Taking the importance of the financial sector away from London, would be like removing the US Dollar from being the currency of the international market place / commodities..........and the fact that ALL Pilots & Air Traffic controllers HAVE to talk in English ( still recognized as the Worlds first language of necessity ) is a fact not lost on Mr Obama ( who speaks it too ) or the EU, or the rest of the World. There will be plenty of countries queueing up to do business with us, if Countries are prepared to trade in Arms, with other Countries, regardless of any embargoes that are in force; do you think, for one minute, that they won't trade with us, if they want something we do, or make; just because we're not part of the EU............come on.........we're talking about people here.