OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[bookhunter2007]

@158 I agree evo - TTIP is a worry - problem is, not much is heard about it due to some being incapable of discussing anything else other than "immergrents and benifets...derp, derp, derp".  What some don't realise is leaving the EU won't make much difference to this - we'll still be in the EEA. And as far as the NHS is concerned, what do you think creates greater pressure on it? Too many migrants...or too many pensioners?

@159 "in those days if you didn't work you didn't eat" Housewives must have been starving.

@160 "Your sense of superiority knows no bounds.....white breathtaking really".  I think it's you who has "supremacy" issues. Nice Freudian slip btw 😉

[astrologica]

A typo is quite different from a Freudian slip...you should know that! 

[astrologica]

Books...I hope you will be fortunate enough to be a pensioner one day. This was a really good thread until it got a bit personal....yet again. No prizes for guessing who did that.

[evoman3957]

One of my earliest memories, was being pushed along in my pushchair; by my Grandfather.  I was lucky to have had him, as many others had lost theirs; in the muddy fields of the Somme, or on the beaches of Dunkirk.  Mine had been in a reserved occupation, a cushy number I hear many ask......no such luck.  He was a miner in the valleys of south Wales, in the days when the miners were on their knees, at the pit face, digging the coal out with picks and shovels; for the war effort.  I still remember, vividly, the scars all over his scalp, from coal falling from the roof of the tunnels and being turned blue by the coal dust.  My father walked to school, with no shoes on his feet, over the slag heaps.....to drag himself out of the poverty of the valleys and make a success of himself.  These are the hardy breed, of men and women, who MADE this Country.........who gave blood, sweat and tears, so that we could have our opinions and voice them freely; on here and everywhere else.  Like we all will, they grew old; what would you have us do ?  Say thanks and then put them down, like some carthorse that had broken its Leg.  They earned every breath they took, every step they made in the freedom that they had bled for.  Pensioners, have earned the rewards they now enjoy and most have been worth 10 times more, than a lot of the modern generation will ever be worth. If progress means that they live longer, to taste the fruits of their own hard labour; then there is at least justice for some in this life.  It's this sort of life, spent in your country of birth; that truly makes it YOUR country, the one you lived in, worked in and never abused or deserted.

As far a the EU is concerned, the more I hear about it; the more annoyed I become, that some " Thing(s)" roped us all into it and not only incorporated a lot of small print......but omitted to mention it all together.  According to Hammond, it could take up to 8 years of negitiations to get out and we'd have to pay reparations.......maybe even continue to pay into it, after we left.

[astrologica]

Evo....that's a lovely post. My father too was a South Wales miner, from the age of 14, and down there during the war. He died of lung disease in 2000. I have a video tape of him describing what it was like down the pit, and the risks they took every working day. Every time I watch it,it brings me to tears. How they did that every day I just do not know. As you say, men like them made this country,so here's to your Father, and mine, and all the others like them. Let's not let them down...let's vote to get out of that stranglehold that the EU has on this country, and make this country great again. 

As for getting old, my father earned every penny of his measly pension, and when the LABOUR government decided they would compensate miners for their loss of health due to their working conditions, he received, for almost fifty years scrabbling underground, just barely enough to pay for a funeral. Meanwhile,the lawyers and solicitors who dealt with miners claims got nice and fat by stretching the claims out for years and years. That's LABOUR for you, supposed to be for the working man. 

I am getting on now, and a pensioner, which I am not going to apologise for. I worked hard for my pension. I am very lucky to have reached the age I am, and I enjoy life, in my little town, the same one I was born in. The town is dying slowly, like a lot of others in the UK. Every now and then we get thrown a few scraps of EU money, along with strict instructions on how it has to be spent. The last hand out , all £30.000 of it , was spent on 'street furniture'....can you believe that? 

So yes...I am going to honour my parents and their generation, and vote to leave that dying corrupt organisation, as I think you will too Evo.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I'm not sure how recounting how the previous generations worked or fought hard for this country can be used either as an argument for remaining in or leaving the EU.

For instance my father was a Royal Engineer during the war - one of the last to leave the coast of France during the Dunkirk retreat and one of the first on the beaches on D-Day - was mentioned twice in despatches yet never fired a shot in anger!

He died 4 years ago in his 90s and was a great believer in European unity and supporter of the idea of a federal Europe.  Having seen the horrors of war his attitude was that the only way to prevent a future conflict was not by isolating ourselves but by forming closer relationships with our neighbours.

Going back to the first paragraph though, his attitude is now irrelevant, he's no longer with us.   Any decision made in the referendum is probably not going to have a great impact on my generation either, I'm 66.   I'm sure though that it is going to make a real difference to younger generations and it is far too important a decision to be decided on tabloid journalistic sound bites.   It is interesting that most of the polls indicate that those under the age of 35 are massively in favour of remaining in the EU - I hope that in 25 years time they won't be blaming my generation, (whichever way the vote goes), for making the wrong decision.

[0125arwen]

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@bookhunter2007 wrote:

@158 I agree evo - TTIP is a worry - problem is, not much is heard about it due to some being incapable of discussing anything else other than "immergrents and benifets...derp, derp, derp".  What some don't realise is leaving the EU won't make much difference to this - we'll still be in the EEA. And as far as the NHS is concerned, what do you think creates greater pressure on it? Too many migrants...or too many pensioners?

@159 "in those days if you didn't work you didn't eat" Housewives must have been starving.

@160 "Your sense of superiority knows no bounds.....white breathtaking really".  I think it's you who has "supremacy" issues. Nice Freudian slip btw 😉

---

migrants, Pensioners already created and paid for the nhs and pretty much everything else you care to mention.

Who staffs pretty much every charity shop for free, that provides extra funds for the nhs and our hospices etc, oh yes that would be pensioners too.

[0125arwen]

When any organisation refuses dodges and avoids being audited, it is time to leave.

[evoman3957]

I think you need to go back a couple more posts, before Astro's or mine, to see / understand how, as you put it, the way previous generations worked; should effect whether we stay or leave the EU.  BH intimated that the drain on the NHS, can be attributed as much to the increase in pensioners; as it could to immigration.  Immigration, being a core topic on having control of our borders, and therefore affecting the decision of some to remain in or leave the EU; the topic naturally progressed to me showing that......if preferential consideration should be given to one of the two, it should be to those who paid for it in blood, sweat and tears. If you go further back in the posts, you'll see the relevance of this; because ( as I said ) Jeremy Hunt said the resource / finances for the NHS were finite; however the demand isn't.  So our treasured NHS, is directly in the firing line of the decisions to stay in or leave the EU and to reduce or curtail the drain on it; we need control of our own borders and we won't get that in the EU............I hope you now see the relevance of the posts.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Evo - I did see the earlier posts, specifically the reference to the finite resources of the NHS and making money available, for example, for a universal meningitis vaccination programme.

Where I have a problem is the question over who are the biggest drain on the NHS.  When 40% of the doctors in the UK are from ethnic minorities and likewise the majority of the support staff, (cleaning, catering, porters etc), are from the ethnic minorities I find it very difficult to accept that immigrants are an unbalanced drain on the NHS.  

Any quotes regarding the cost and use of NHS facilities due to immigration when quoted by the 'out' campaign are never tempered by the other side of the equation - the larger proportion of immigrants contributing to the tax and NI coffers due to more of them being of working age compared to the general population and the large numbers contributing directly to the NHS availability of services by being directly employed by the NHS. 

Likewise when the 'in' campaign talk of the economic impact of immigration the benefits are emphasised without linking the cost in terms of NHS services, housing, education etc.

I agree and accept that today's pensioners as a group are the ones who have financed the growth of the NHS, the welfare system, education and so on.  We, I'm an OAP myself, are also responsible for allowing the total mismanagement of the economy which has left the country owing unimaginable amounts.   We may have contributed to the health, wealth and happiness, (or otherwise) of the country but that doesn't mean our opinion over Europe should bear any more weight than that from others.  If anything our age makes our opinion less relevant as we aren't the ones who will have to live with what results from the decision.

[cee-dee]

I think you need to go back to answer #147 http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/The-Round-Table/OK-in-or-out/m-p/4712726#M178721 and add this to it now:-

They've broken your fences down and used them for firewood and constructing "shelters" then cut the trees down, trampled your garden and fields in to a muddy morass and eaten your four legged friends. Now they're battering your front door so wocher gonna do now?

[upthecreekyetagain]

I think you want to forget the analogies.  They bear absolutely no relevance to the actual situation and are simply making light of a tragic situation.  The fences you are talking about belong equally to those who don't share your views and who are more interested in why these people are behaving the way they are and trying to find a solution to that rather than concentrating on the symptoms of the problem.  

[evoman3957]

Creeky........as my son is a Doctor, I'm only too well aware; that were it not for ethnic minorities working in the NHS, we'd be in an even worse situation.  However, we STILL don't have anywhere near enough doctors or Nurses and as an example.........if by employing 1 Indian Doctor, another 10 Indians ( who didn't work in the NHS ) came into the country; it would be counter productive.  As it would seem that free movement of workers within the EU, means that we can't cherry pick ; then we will obviously get more people who DON'T work in the NHS, than DO work in the NHS..........and the burden on the NHS WILL increase.

I still don't understand how countries like Romania, Hungary, Poland etc. etc. can function, when all their Doctors and Nurses prefer to come and work here.........they don't care one iota about there own countries, who need them even more................although with half their populations following them to various other countries.......maybe they don't.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Your figures on doctors don't stack up - 40% of doctors represent in excess of 60,000 doctors - in the UK there is roughly one doctor per 400 members of the population, so those 60,000 doctors cover 24 million members of the population.

I do agree though that it is morally wrong that the UK as a relatively rich country with an established healthcare system not only welcomes but encourages skilled individuals to emigrate to the UK from countries that are in far greater need of those skills than we are in the UK.  That is another reason I believe our visa system for non-EU immigrants, (and the one proposed for all immigrants by the 'out'  campaign), is not defensible.

[artful_dodgings]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

It is interesting that most of the polls indicate that those under the age of 35 are massively in favour of remaining in the EU

---

Mmmmm...if the polls in the 2015 General Election are anything to go by, I wouldn't set too much store by that.

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Where I have a problem is the question over who are the biggest drain on the NHS.  When 40% of the doctors in the UK are from ethnic minorities and likewise the majority of the support staff, (cleaning, catering, porters etc), are from the ethnic minorities I find it very difficult to accept that immigrants are an unbalanced drain on the NHS.  

---

The NHS employs 1.6 million people if we base this on your 40% this would equate to 640,000 people employed from ethnic minorities in total,so what about the rest of the millions of people from ethnic minorities...Don't they get sick ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@mikes*corvettes wrote:

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Where I have a problem is the question over who are the biggest drain on the NHS.  When 40% of the doctors in the UK are from ethnic minorities and likewise the majority of the support staff, (cleaning, catering, porters etc), are from the ethnic minorities I find it very difficult to accept that immigrants are an unbalanced drain on the NHS.  

---

The NHS employs 1.6 million people if we base this on your 40% this would equate to 640,000 people employed from ethnic minorities in total,so what about the rest of the millions of people from ethnic minorities...Don't they get sick ?

---

Of course they get sick but the ethnic minorities don't make up anywhere near 40% of the population!

[mikes*corvettes]

So are you saying to prop up the NHS with a 640k workforce we should carry on letting in untold numbers of ethnic minorities,because that's what it sounds like to me.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

So are you saying to prop up the NHS with a 640k workforce we should carry on letting in untold numbers of ethnic minorities,because that's what it sounds like to me.

---

No - my response was to claims that immigrants are a drain on the NHS resources and further immigration will increase that drain - figures however just don't back up that claim

[artful_dodgings]

bookhunter wrote:

Most of the poor dears have probably never even heard of things like TTIP.

__________________________________________________________________

All you need to know about the TTIP.

'Have you heard about TTIP? If your answer is no, don’t get too worried; you’re not meant to have'.  

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare...