02-12-2024 3:59 PM - edited 02-12-2024 4:03 PM
Hi I've just received this message contacted ebay and is being sent to everyone
That's me I'm done no more ebay for me bye bye
We are making changes to the way we process payments on eBay. Going forward, we’ll make your funds available for payout within 48 hours after we’ve confirmed delivery of the item. Until then, you’ll see a “hold” on your funds. This process helps keep our marketplace safe.
06-02-2025 6:28 PM
Funds received by [eBay] on your behalf represent an unsecured claim for payment against [eBay}, but do not constitute deposits. [eBay] may combine your funds with the funds of other [eBay] customers in pooled accounts and invest the funds. You do not have any ownership interest in these investments and any interest earned from these investments shall be retained by [eBay].
Deposits - they (eBay) are talking about the funds received by them from sellers/buyers are not classed as deposits. ( as you would deposit in a bank)... it is referring to your funds - not eBays...eBay then use those " funds" in their account ... you are relinquishing your rights in a sense to those " funds" and eBay can do what they like with them..ie. pool them with other funds and invest etc...They are using " third party contractual agreement" because the primary transaction is the seller and the buyer... eBay are the third party by holding the funds in a "holding account"...
06-02-2025 8:31 PM
@vintique*violet wrote:I will have a think on this and try and get my banking "work brain" back into gear -but thinking outloud for a moment .....🤔 for a company to " hold" anothers funds it must be in a separate " holding account"... they can name it what they like, but those funds are not part of their business legally as they belong to someone else, they are being " held on behalf of"...( but the interest can) by using Escrow... which is just a "thrid party contractual agreement" some call them Escrow Accounts... usually escrow is used for transactions of high value or more complex ( ie property , Art, stock market and the likes ) it is overseen by an Escrow agent and these can be banks or solicitors or even specialised service providers... it is a third party contractual arrangement. The Escrow agent for simple terms works as such as they receive and disperse funds from said ( bank) account for the " primary transacting parties".... and there must be a " conrtactual agreement " already in place prior to this...
@vintique*violet my understanding is that escrow is typically considered a deposit type of account or agreement where, as you described, generally a third party holds the funds to ensure contract terms are fulfilled.
It's also my understanding that escrow/deposit accounts don't typically earn interest for that third party (there may be situations where the funds collect interest and it is supposed to be paid to one of the other parties) and in some locations it may even not be legal for that third party to earn interest on funds in escrow - not sure what the specific laws and regulations are in the UK regarding this though.
So that's why I don't believe eBay payments are technically/legally an escrow situation - the Payments ToU explicitly states your balance is not a deposit but rather a payment account in which funds received by eBay on your behalf represent an unsecured claim for payment against eBay, but do not constitute deposits.
Again, my understanding is escrow would represent a secured claim (where the funds for a specific transaction are held as collateral to secure payment/contract completion for that transaction) vs an unsecured claim which would mean that you have a general claim on the amount of funds being processed on your behalf but there isn't specific collateral being held for each specific transaction - if that makes sense?
Any way, I don't know how much the minutiae of it really matters but it's fun to make the brain work trying to figure it all out. 😂
Ultimately the important part is whatever the technical/legal framework eBay is using, it's one that allows them to collect interest on those funds and they have publicly acknowledged doing so since at least October 2023.
06-02-2025 9:34 PM
Thank you - yes it certainly does make your brain work, or in my case work "overtime" 😉
Of course we could all have different opinions, and I dont want to get too tied up or too tired in my case about it...I was just trying to work out how eBay could legally " hold" sellers/buyers funds. And because of my global trade banking background it got my brain whirring... in my original post I was trying to explain how it works and why it could mean an "Escrow account" and that eBay may be a specialised service provider or agent... I omitted to highlight moreso that escrow accounts can/do earn interest and it basically boils down to the terms of the agreement - which is why I said that you/we seller/buyer are being removed from the " deposit" funds because eBay is the " third party" they are securing their " interest" from the " primary " ( seller & buyer)... and whatever bank they are using for " holding funds" which would be an agreement between them...the secured claim is for eBay... as in the " funds held" as they will need to release once all the sales transactions are completed and it would be of high value... the seller/buyer funds is the unsecured... ie we have no claim... Any how, you are right there has to be a legal framework and it would have the i's dotted and the t's crossed to secure eBays "holding" funds which will be used to "disperse" back to the sellers for their sales. Whatever financial institution they use to conduct their business may not use escrow accounts, or they may have been advised of a different account whereby they could do this but I would question the high volume funds , the type of transactions, the security of for such transactions, which would require " special handling" for want of a better term... hence if eBay are an Escrow agent or a specialised service provider they have everything to hand or in-house so to speak and can legally " hold funds"... Escrow is just a term for a " third party contractual agreement"... that is all. Like I said prior, the seller/buyers funds are the primary transactions , ebay are the third party, so unsure what other type of account could be used in this instance, and their term and conditions are removing the " primaries" so that the " third party" has " control" if you like. Funds can also be " moved" around but I think there would be a " contractual" time limit on those. Plus the interest paid on an Escrow account is dictated by market conditions... I think you would find that interesting ;- ) So they could be an agent / specialised service provider or use one, for the" escrow" account agreements or not, I don't really know or have a preference, other than eBay are now deciding to hold funds for up to 2 weeks or more on private seller accounts and they most definitely are garnering interest and investing those funds. Another thought... I am unsure if eBay " legally" could hold funds from legitimate business sellers?
Always a pleasure to read your posts and knowledge, especially on your site of the same name 😉
07-02-2025 8:59 AM
Thank you both for explaining the "nitty-gritty" of escrow. As someone without a business banking background I've only come across this sort of arrangement when buying property. My deposit was held by my solicitor in their Client Account until the mortgage was agreed and a Completion date set. The solicitor then passed the deposit to the seller's solicitor.
Ebay's compulsory Hold on private seller funds looks to me very much like the scam the utility companies use gain control of their customers money for their own use and benefit. Both companies think-up a plausible reason to get control of their customer's money.
Ebay says it's because buyers need protection. Utilities say it's to help customers budget for future bills. Both interrupt the normal flow money from buyer to seller. Ebay by delaying payment. Utilities by taking payment in advance.
The result in both cases is in effect a forced, interest free loan to the company by its customers.
Like it or not, so long as the reason for taking control of the customers money remains 'plausible', I'm sure the companies will have ensured that they're within the law and acceptable business practice.
The practice may be annoying but it works well enough while the companies are solvent. Sellers get their money, but 14 days later. Utility bills are paid from the customer's accumulated balance. The companies tot-up the interest they made on the arrangement.
I have one question. In the event of a stock market collapse or another banking crisis, who guarantees the funds being held will be used for the purpose they're held for or will be passed to to the seller on the 'agreed' date?
While both are unlikely it would be comforting to know that there is some guarantee that if such an event occurs sellers will get their money and it won't just disappear with some faceless, unknown fund that's declared itself bankrupt.
07-02-2025 10:04 AM
07-02-2025 10:42 AM
eBay are not a financial institute and as such do not have any guarantees provided to the consumer in terms of covering seller funds, I suspect you are thinking of the FSCS scheme for banks up to 85k or at least along those lines.
I would guess that we would indeed be left high and dry in such an event.
07-02-2025 10:45 AM
I would not be using your Solicitor 😞
Get a mortgage offer ....then give your Solicitor your deposit just before exchange of contracts
07-02-2025 10:53 AM
I've just had my first ''payment will be released 48 hours after confirmed delivery order, which I posted this morning.
Although I do post tracked - mainly Royal Mail tracked 48 - not only do they not always get scanned on delivery, but sometimes they only update to delivered on the Royal Mail site, and not on Ebay.
if an item shows clearly that it was delivered on the Royal Mail website, but still shows as in transit on the Ebay tracking page, is there still a 14 day wait for funds to be released?
07-02-2025 11:27 AM
I would argue not. I would certainly advise anyone in this situation to contact customer services and ask them to check that delivery has been confirmed on the RM website and to then authorize payment. The more people who do this the better as it would, hopefully (??!), flag up an issue. However, that said, I don't think it would be a problem in most cases.
07-02-2025 11:31 AM
@theelench wrote:
I have one question. In the event of a stock market collapse or another banking crisis, who guarantees the funds being held will be used for the purpose they're held for or will be passed to to the seller on the 'agreed' date?
While both are unlikely it would be comforting to know that there is some guarantee that if such an event occurs sellers will get their money and it won't just disappear with some faceless, unknown fund that's declared itself bankrupt.
@theelench since payment accounts are not deposits, they are not insured or guaranteed.
Should something so drastic happen, sellers would have an "unsecured claim" to those funds - meaning they would have the right to sue/claim to try to recover the money they are owed but those funds are not backed by any kind of collateral or secured in any way.
Realistically though in that situation - shareholders and large creditors would fight over what is left and clear it all out long before any seller claims saw the light of day.
07-02-2025 11:49 AM
Just been offered 50% off promoted listings this morning, ebay are a joke.
07-02-2025 12:02 PM
@sunshinedior67 wrote:
I use to buy postage via PayPal on eBay but when I stopped using PayPal on
eBay and since have always purchased Royal Mail postage online. I copy
paste the tracking number in & mark dispatched. The delivery status shows
on eBay exactly the same as if I'd purchased via eBay. The problem here is
not all couriers scan their deliveries leading to false claims. Royal Mail
provide tracking numbers for every delivery purchased whether that's a
letter or parcel but if the seller doesn't enter it on eBay the delivery
won't register. If the item isn't delivered Royal Mail loss claim form is
simple & they reimburse postage & item value. I use Royal Mail because I
won't go out if pocket if item is damaged or not delivered
You can avoid the cut and paste bit if you link your Royal Mail account to your Ebay account.
I think there is more than one Royal Mail website for buying postage? I use Click and Drop. Names and addresses and any necessary reference numbers are imported from Ebay almost immediately an item sells. I manually enter weight and parcel size (small or medium or whatever) and choose the required service (usually Tracked 48). Once I have paid for the postage the tracking number gets uploaded to Ebay and the item is marked as despatched, usually within the hour. Collection can also be arranged.
07-02-2025 12:10 PM
I wasn't thinking of anything specific but if ebay ends up with millions squirrelled away in an account somewhere, IMO someone should be guaranteeing that sellers will always get their money back especially as contributing to a loan to ebay is now a condition of private sellers using their site.
Having read the opinion of @valueaddedresource it looks like whatever happens, in good times or bad it's a win for the shareholders, resting on the backs of sellers and at their risk.
At the very least sellers should be made aware of that risk, however remote, and that in the event of such a catastrophe it now seems that it's not just scammers that can leave a seller without their item or the money but the shareholders can take the interest as dividends and just say "hard luck" to sellers if it all goes wrong.
07-02-2025 12:15 PM
It was 20 years ago!!! 🙂 and the only example I could think of where I've ever handed money to a third party as part of a transaction, rather than to the seller.
07-02-2025 12:20 PM
Thanks for that info.
Glad I won't be contributing then -- just in case whatever comes from the White House next week / month / year spooks the markets into a panic attack !!
07-02-2025 12:39 PM
@valueaddedresource wrote:
@theelench wrote:
I have one question. In the event of a stock market collapse or another banking crisis, who guarantees the funds being held will be used for the purpose they're held for or will be passed to to the seller on the 'agreed' date?
While both are unlikely it would be comforting to know that there is some guarantee that if such an event occurs sellers will get their money and it won't just disappear with some faceless, unknown fund that's declared itself bankrupt.
@theelench since payment accounts are not deposits, they are not insured or guaranteed.
Should something so drastic happen, sellers would have an "unsecured claim" to those funds - meaning they would have the right to sue/claim to try to recover the money they are owed but those funds are not backed by any kind of collateral or secured in any way.
Realistically though in that situation - shareholders and large creditors would fight over what is left and clear it all out long before any seller claims saw the light of day.
Hmm.
I share the general concern about the security of our payments while being held by Ebay. That money really should be ring-fenced somehow.
However, if Ebay failed, went insolvent, I understand the law is clear as to the priorities of dividing up whatever is left. Shareholders do not really get a look in, they are bottom of the pile. All unsecured creditors, big or small, are supposed to be treated equally.
In my limited experience the only people who actually get much out of insolvent companies are the insolvency practitioners doing the winding up, on their substantial hourly rates.
07-02-2025 12:50 PM
@eastern-lights wrote:Hmm.
I share the general concern about the security of our payments while being held by Ebay. That money really should be ring-fenced somehow.
However, if Ebay failed, went insolvent, I understand the law is clear as to the priorities of dividing up whatever is left. Shareholders do not really get a look in, they are bottom of the pile. All unsecured creditors, big or small, are supposed to be treated equally.
In my limited experience the only people who actually get much out of insolvent companies are the insolvency practitioners doing the winding up, on their substantial hourly rates.
@eastern-lights sorry I wasn't exactly clear - it's still early here in the US and I'm waiting for the coffee to kick in. 😂
My thought process on shareholders wasn't necessarily that paying the value of their shares would be prioritized over creditors, but that if something like this were to happen due to reasons which could at all plausibly be alleged to include corporate negligence/breach of fiduciary duties, ensuing shareholder lawsuits would likely tie things up for quite some time.
As you said, often the insolvency companies and lawyers are the only ones who truly get much of anything out of these situations.
07-02-2025 12:53 PM
@theelench wrote:At the very least sellers should be made aware of that risk, however remote, and that in the event of such a catastrophe it now seems that it's not just scammers that can leave a seller without their item or the money but the shareholders can take the interest as dividends and just say "hard luck" to sellers if it all goes wrong.
@theelench eBay would say they have done their duty to make sellers aware of the risks through their various terms of use and user agreements - and most courts would likely tend to agree.
07-02-2025 1:03 PM
Yes " unsecured" because of the terms and conditions eBay are getting you to agree to... by " removing" the seller/buyer claim to " funds" as they are in a " holding account" and eBay have " ownership" of said funds... so if ( when) everything goes array then the " unsecured" are at the bottom of the list...
07-02-2025 1:06 PM