Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

[ciahil0]

Hi, I've a buyer who ordered a parcel and it's been marked as delivered with photo proof but he claims it's been stolen as it was left at his front door. I've contacted royal mail but they've yet to respond. 

What would you recommend I do about this? 

[osalk49]

You might not wish to read my second message too. Maybe you should read all the replies.

[irt303]

Even more interesting! So, in my case, the postie was allowed to choose a safe place with no input from me, but should not have, under any circumstances, left the item in my recycling bin (which even I would not have been allowed to select)!

Surely, no one now (unless they think I'm lying, in which case I can attach a photo of my card - which, ironically, is still in my recycling) would question the fact that RM (and, no doubt, other delivery companies) blatantly flout their own rules...

[irt303]

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this response (message 21). You're being somewhat unreasonable, even though I made it clear I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, just contradicting your claim with a factual account from personal experience.

For one thing, I did acknowledge at the end of my long post (message 18) that other replies were posted while I was still typing that one (notifications come up onscreen). That includes your second post (message 12). When I started my long reply, message 10 by *vyolla* was the most recent.

Since you are (needlessly) suggesting that I read all replies, I assume that you do too, so you would have read that acknowledgement.

I can't prove it, and you probably don't care despite your remark, but I do read the OP and all replies. The only exceptions to this are threads I have no interest in, or threads I'm already following, in which case I read the most recent replies since my last visit. Even then, I may go back several posts (possibly back to the OP) to re-familiarise myself. Not that I should have to defend or justify myself in this respect.

To address your second post, which I can magically quote without having read it, you said:

"Royal Mail doesn't leave the parcel in a safe place unless it's requested."

I repeat: that isn't always the case. Like I said in my long post, I wish it were always the case, and that I could agree with you on this. I'm not making up the fact that a postie left an item for me in a 'safe place' of their - not my - choosing (and, moreover, in a location that even RM's T&Cs state is not an acceptable location). I'm not some troll trying to stir up controversy or wind people up for laughs. I was merely recounting a recent experience that proves - to myself, if nobody else - that RM don't always follow their own safe place rules. I'm not one of those disingenuous "My lived experience [I hate that expression] trumps objective reality" types. I've even - half-jokingly, half-seriously - offered to post a screenshot of my 'Something for you' card. I guess you could counter that by saying that I have somehow accessed a blank card, and have written on it myself (all for the purpose of 'proving' myself right on this thread), but then we'd be veering into tinfoil hat territory.

I'm not sure whether it's my long-winded post(s) or my contradicting your comment (or both) that has elicited your sarcastic response, but I apologise if I've unintentionally upset you, and I suggest we draw a line under it (or at least keep the fisticuffs for next playtime).

I feel bad for the OP. As with many threads, this discussion is a natural evolution from their request for advice, but it does little, if nothing, to help them, so I apologise to ciahil0 ("see a hill?) for my part, and hope that their issue gets resolved. The limited advice I can offer is to persevere with RM (good luck, you'll probably need it, unfortunately). As my sparring partner osalk49 says (in another post I didn't read), it would be useful to know what the photo shows exactly.

[dch2112011]

I had to apologise to leadhills_scott  the post you are referring to was inaccurate - if you look at post 15 it explains why RM can choose a safe place and what their rules are for choosing a safe place

[dch2112011]

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@irt303 wrote:

Even more interesting! So, in my case, the postie was allowed to choose a safe place with no input from me, but should not have, under any circumstances, left the item in my recycling bin (which even I would not have been allowed to select)!

Absolutely correct under no circumstances should a Royal Mail postperson have left your package in the recycling bin and neither should RM have left the OP's buyer's package on the doorstep.

The only redeeming fact with your delivery is that the postperson left you a card with where it was left, which hasn't been mentioned by the OP which poses a question as to whether RM leave packages in non nominated safe places without leaving a card which would in your case potentially of sent your goods to recycling ?

If postpeople are ignoring the RM rules on safeplaces are they also ignoring leaving a card ? It might explain some of the theft claims / non delivery claims from members ?

---

[irt303]

Yes, you're right, and I did read post 15 as well - I must have got muddled up when replying to osalk49 (flitting back and forth between pages 1 and 2, copying & pasting, even taking screenshots!).

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but my current understanding is this: the postie was acting within the rules (in principle) by choosing a safe place with no input from me, BUT was not following RM rules by placing the item in a recycling bin (since that is not deemed by RM to be an acceptable safe place, and would not have been deemed as acceptable even if I had nominated it myself). Is that correct?

In any case, the fact that RM can leave an item in a safe place without any input from the recipient still contradicts osalk49's claim that they will only leave an item in a safe place if the recipient requests it (not that I'm interested in scoring points, you understand!).

Thank you for coming back to clarify.

I'm still unsure whether or not it's worth me having an official moan at RM about where the postie left my package. Maybe I'll retrieve that card from my recycling bag, but keep it in the event of a second occurrence (which could be a way off). But they could legitimately say that I should have complained earlier about the first occurrence, and that it couldn't form part of my complaint about the subsequent one. So I've sort of answered myself there. Heads up, RM - another complaint inbound!

I don't suppose you could point me to where those T&Cs are stated (specifically the bit about doorstep, recycling bins, etc. not being acceptable)? I've had a look, but can't find the section you quoted. No worries if you can't / won't / aren't allowed to, I'll try again.

[dch2112011]

Everything in your last post is correct  - the link to RM items delivered to my safeplace - explains what I posted

link to safeplace  

[dch2112011]

This is the RM announcement of this change - hence why i originally made an incorrect post - i had not realised RM had made this change

From the end of September 2022, if there is no recipient in to accept your parcel(s), we may choose to deliver them to a Safeplace location at the address, if our postman or postwoman deems that location to be suitable (currently we only leave safe if the recipient has asked us to directly).

In that case, we will also leave a “Something For You” card explaining where the parcel(s) is located. If we are unable to find a suitable Safeplace and cannot deliver to a neighbour, we will return your parcel(s) to our local Royal Mail Customer Service Point and leave a “Something For You” card at the address. This applies to any non-letterboxable product that does not require a signature (i.e. Special Delivery Guaranteed or Tracked® 24 with Signature), age or ID verification and any Articles for the Blind.

[irt303]

In response to your recent posts, mainly 25.

Yes, in my growing confusion, I forgot that I'd already acknowledged your clarification in my post 22 - but thanks for clarifying yet again! It gets a bit confusing when posts overlap, and it doesn't help that I take so long doing most of my posts (even longer when doing it on my phone, like now) - so apologies for any confusion or repetition.

Good spot re the card - hopefully @ciahil0 will come back and provide more info on that and the photo.

Good point re the bin, too. As I'm new to the area, I don't know how the recycling 'works'. I think the bin would only be collected if I 'presented' it, rather than leaving it against the wall of my property. Also, even without the card, the package was sufficiently large that I (and, one would hope, a recycling operative) would have noticed it. In their (meagre) defense, the postie did place an empty bin on top of the one with the package (carefully, I hope). But that's all circumstantial, and specific to my example - as you say, they shouldn't have left it there in the first place.

"If postpeople are ignoring the RM rules on safeplaces are they also ignoring leaving a card ?"

Oh, that's definitely happened to me before, and again, on more than one occasion.

I just hope that, reading this and my previous posts, sellers aren't rushing to their BBLs to add me (well, one particular seller might be, but for different reasons). The vast majority of delivery issues I had were to do with where I lived before, and were very rarely - if ever - problems with eBay orders, as I usually had them delivered to another house or a C&C location.

Oh, and thanks very much for that link - I'll bookmark it.

[irt303]

(Post 5) - "I wouldn't consider a door step a safe place to deliver a package to either, but eBay will".

I'm not contradicting you, but that's interesting (sorry I keep using that word) in view of subsequent posts where it's been clarified that RM themselves don't class a doorstep as an acceptable safe place. Without a real-life instance to go on, one can only wonder how such an eBay claim would go. It must have happened before, for some buyer, at some point in the past, but I'm reluctant to use the word 'precedent' as that would imply eBay being consistent in their application of policy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if your statement is right, because one thing I've learned from the forums is that the main case-deciding factor for eBay is attempted delivery, from which it follows that, for them, the issue of whether or not the delivery company / person adhered to their own rules is of secondary importance (or none at all).

I guess it would be a particularly dumb postie, or one who wasn't too bothered about keeping their job, who would not only leave an item on the doorstep, but would actually write "Safe Place - doorstep" on the card. But then again, my postie did just that (except, swap "doorstep" for "recycle bin" - an equally 'unacceptable' safe place). Either they don't know (or care about) the rules, or they presume ignorance on the recipient's part, because they must know that items can be traced back to their delivery round.

[irt303]

(Post 17) - "Wouldn't that be easier ! now you have to download the app to opt out or spend how long waiting for a human on the phone  to opt out."

I agree - what a faff - but just wanted to point out that this is only for opting out of Safe Place. You can still opt of 'Leave with a neighbour', but that requires completing a form. Seems there's no single method (unless you still have the sticker!) for opting out of both.

[dch2112011]

vyolla being one of the forum's mentors will give you factual information based on ebay policies and years of experiance using ebay policies on ebay. 

This is afterall an ebay forum and finding your way around ebay's policies and what a seller / buyer can and should do within ebay is sometimes in conflict with what you would normally do outside of ebay due to all ebay members being bound by the ebay user agreement and it's policies.

As vyolla quite correctly states is that within ebay delivery is determined when tracking shows an item delivered to the buyer's address via the MBG and therefore would close in the seller's favour.

However  there are circumstances where this can be overturned in the buyer's favour !

If the carrier provides proof that they delivered to a wrong address ebay will find an INR case in favour of the buyer or at least make sure they are reimbursed 

The twist is that with your card proving that RM did not correctly deliver and if RM confirmed this would this be treated under the MBG as not delivered to the address by ebay ?

I have never heard of anyone 'testing' the mbg / ebay in this way but there is a case to do so based on the policy wording - it would be interesting to see someone put this forward in an INR case or appeal - if only to clarify the position.

[irt303]

I was originally going to ask *vyolla* if they were absolutely sure of that "but eBay will" bit (while treading on eggshells so as not to sound confrontational, and to avoid alienating another member!), but thought better of it in view of the fact that they have tons more eBay experience than I do (which I was already aware of before reading your post).

But saying that, there is still a lingering doubt in my mind, and in yours, too. Unless I've misunderstood your last two paragraphs - which I don't believe I have - you too are casting a little doubt (perhaps I ought to say "uncertainty") on the definitive "but eBay will [consider the recipient's doorstep to be an acceptable safe place]" bit of *vyolla*'s comment, without going so far as to openly question it.

Put bluntly, and no offense to you or *vyolla*, if "but eBay will" was 100% demonstrably true and accurate, there would be no need for the kind of test case you mention "to clarify the position" - the position would already have been established and clarified by a prior case.

Those last two paragraphs of yours are precisely what I was driving at (while trying to be diplomatic). The fact that RM left the item in a location disallowed by their own published protocol (a doorstep in this case) represents, as you rightly say, a "twist" in an otherwise more straightforward INR case.

Your own question "would this be treated under the MBG as not delivered to the address by ebay ?" shows that "but eBay will" is actually by no means an already-established irrefutable fact - if it were, then the question would be entirely redundant (which it isn't).

Without a test case to look at, it's a merely speculative question (but, we both agree, an intriguing one), so maybe I should ask it on next Wednesday's chat, although I'm pretty sure the reply would be fairly nebulous, along the lines of "it would depend on the particulars of that specific case" - although I could possibly forestall that by 'building in' the particulars in my hypothetical question.

I can't believe that there has never, in the whole history of eBay, been a case such as the one we're talking about. The problem is, would Dave, Marco or Anita go to the lengths required to access such a case, let alone publicly state the outcome and eBay's reasoning behind it? I find that highly doubtful - a vague and non-committal response would be far more expedient for them. And even I wouldn't argue against the fact that their time would be far better spent dealing with actual situations than a purely hypothetical one. I may ask if I'm around then, and depending how busy the chat is (last week's was pretty quiet, only 23 posts IIRC)  - we'll see.

It's gone half past midnight now, and I'm probably the last one to leave, but in case you're still here, I'll wish you goodnight, and thanks for all the 'bantz'.

[papso22]

To help simplify it:

Ebay will initially (and possibly on appeal), treat the online delivery confirmation as providing seller protection and deciding in the seller's favour.

Ebay may overturn this decision on appeal, however I think the chance is slight as the buyer has no evidence of non delivery or theft.  A report to Action Fraud may help, who knows?

Ebay has its own rules which are all that count for the purposes of the MBG.

[magiche88]

I tend to the view that for items of small value the cost in time and probably exasperation has to be weighed against financial loss. More valuable items can be sent 'Signed for'. For me the financial cost tends to be a very  small percentage of my annual sales and therefore I issue a refund and add the buyer to my small banned list. C'est la guerre.

This is not a reflection on the buyer, just a precaution to stop further loss, which may be due to theft in a particular area.

[krezus599]

It's not Your fault: You've done all accurate and according to the tracking details the buyer already received this package...later investigation belong to buyer ( she or he can go to the neighbors , Post office etc..).

You've done Your job  and you are not responsible if someone lives in an area where there are thieves.

The situation would be different if you sent a parcel that was tracked and it was not delivered at all -according the tracking.

When buyer open a case not received item You only enter this tracking  that's all...eBay always will be on Your side.

Barbara

[gt_preloved]

A lot of incorrect advice above.

UK Distance Selling regulations means the seller is responsible for an item until it has been delivered to the recipient unless the recipient has pre-agreed that an item can be left in a 'safe place'. 

Plain text version of the regulation here: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/if-something-you-or...

If the recipient hasn't pre-agreed a safe place with RM or the courier, then although eBay will side with you, the law will side with the recipient and you open yourself to potential action unless you help out and refund or resend.

In my experience both RM and couriers leave parcels in un-agreed safe places all the time and where I have had to make a claim as a seller, the insurance from both has typically paid out in the past. 

While RM should not leave parcels in an un-agreed location, my postie certainly does it all the time. I'm often finding parcels left on my doorstep even though I have not agreed or specified a safe place delivery location.

[sauleverson]

That is a disgrace as a buyer your courier as a seller leaving stuff wherever they like and your response is not your problem

[pete7890_4]

yes i have that exact situation now parcel left at my door in plain sight ,not there when i got home ,seller slow to reply so opened up with e bay all they did was ask the seller ,they sent the tracking pic e bay said no refund ,and thats after me saying it was left in an open place ,now e bay is saying i have to contact the delivery company ,why should i ,chances are they wont reply ,surely its up to the seller as they use them all the time 

[lucy_farmer]

'......now e bay is saying i have to contact the delivery company ,why should i ,chances are they wont reply ,surely its up to the seller as they use them all the time ....'

I'm pretty sure the delivery company *won't* reply to you : they generally only deal with the person who has a contract with them.

In this case that's the seller.

(Was it somebody at ebay CS *on the phone* who told you to contact the delivery company? The humans in CS  do say a load of old tut on occasion! Sometimes they just want to get you off the phone as fast as possible in order to hit their 'calls answered within {however long}' target...)

I'd appeal the case with ebay and with a bit of luck they'll change their mind and refund you. (often they refund out of their own pocket in an appeal case, rather than dragging the money back from the seller .)

It's worth a go!