Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Hi, I've a buyer who ordered a parcel and it's been marked as delivered with photo proof but he claims it's been stolen as it was left at his front door. I've contacted royal mail but they've yet to respond. 

 

What would you recommend I do about this? 

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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

It is down to you in reality, 

 

under ebay's MBG if the item is tracked and shown as delivered to the address given to you at the time of order you need to do nothing other than raise an enquiry with the carrier, if they agree that it was misdelivered ie not left in an authorised safe place or wrong address and they agree to compensate you - then you should refund or replace the item because you failed to ensure delivery to the customer.

 

But if the carrier states it was correctly delivered to the customer then it is a personal choice as to whether you compensate the customer. You would have done everything to assist and would be under no obligation to refund.

Message 2 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Should the buyer open a case for item not received,  enter those tracking numbers into the case details and it will close in your favour having showed delivered.

 

If you haven't done so already,  enter the numbers now,  where you marked the item as dispatched.

 

Items left in unsafe places in view of passers by, get stolen all the time,  we hear about this daily.

 

Nothing Royal Mail or eBay can do about that missing item.

 

Your buyer can try and claim from house insurance,  this has worked for some,  or report it to the Police.  Not for Any chance of retrieving their item,  but itf there's a pattern of theft in their area,  good for the Police to be aware.

 

@ciahil0 

Message 3 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

I am sorry to disagree with the other messages left for this seller but unless the buyer instructed the delivery company that they could leave the package in a "safe place" their doorstep then the seller is responsible for the item until it is in the buyers possession. 

Message 4 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

I wouldn't consider a door step a safe place to deliver a package to either, but eBay will.

 

Ask your buyer to open an eBay item not received claim, which should be found in your favour as tracking has a 'delivered' status.

 

You'll then have time to put in a claim with Royal Mail, if you win the claim you can refund the buyer.

 

If your buyer goes to their card provider and issues a not received chargeback then they will get a refund, but as the eBay claim was found in your favour eBay will pay for the refund, not you.

Message 5 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Your statement depends entirely on whether a buyer nominates the doorstep as a safe place and in doing so gives a disclaimer to the carrier 

 

A seller is not privy to this information until a claim has been made against the carrier when the carrier will accept or deny the claim, unfortunately a buyer stating it was left on my doorstep and stolen needs to be backed up by the carrier as to where it was left and whether they had instruction to do so.

 

This is reasonable in the circumstances, there has to be some sort of safeguard against false claims

Message 6 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Sound advice from vyolla

If i had a pound for every buyer that claimed this!

The only evidence tha you have is the scan that shows it was delivered.

So defend any claim using that scan, not all buyers tell you the truth.

Unfortunalty when you been in the game for some time you become very sceptical

Live long and prosper
Message 7 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

It's actually not though. 

 

I've quoted it before and I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look it up again but under distant selling regs and whatnot, the key is delivery to a buyers address. It does not specify it has to be placed into someone's hands or put through the door. 

 

Someone's address is the entire premises. That includes garden, shed, path in their garden leading to their front door. The law is literal and delivery to an address includes the land of that address. Of course it's another matter if by doing this it rained and the parcel was damaged. If it's stolen then that is a criminal offense and should be reported to the police. 

 

The until it's in the buyers possession part is simply an opinion, not law. It should happen like that but it doesn't need to. 

 

 

"you need to do nothing other than raise an enquiry with the carrier, if they agree that it was misdelivered"

 

In theory you don't need to do anything full stop. The right thing to do is to raise a case with the courier though as someone might end up out of pocket if what they are saying is genuine. A hard one to call as anyone can say it's been stolen when they've really received it. Maybe the buyer tried it with other sellers and got a refund or another sent right away and so are trying it on with others. You just never know. 

Message 8 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Ebay and the courier let you know a few times about your delivery. Next time, be at your address. This is neither the courier's fault nor the seller's. When you purchase something on eBay and the seller says that he will use Royal Mail and you go ahead and make the purchase, you automatically accept Royal Mail's terms and conditions, and if they say that in case nobody is at the recepient's address, they could leave the parcel in a safe place, and if it gets stolen, you cannot do anything. 

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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep


@osalk49 wrote:

you automatically accept Royal Mail's terms and conditions, and if they say that in case nobody is at the recepient's address, they could leave the parcel in a safe place, and if it gets stolen, you cannot do anything. 


Can you link me to that in Royal Mail's terms and conditions please?

 

Under the Delivery section in their terms and conditions this is the only reference I can see:

 

8.6 Where we are unable to deliver your order (for example if it does not fit through the letter box) and/or if you are unable to accept delivery, we will leave a note at the delivery address with details for you to re-arrange delivery or to collect your order from your local Royal Mail delivery office.

Message 10 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Royal Mail safe places has to be requested by the recipient - they are not allowed to make that choice themselves.

 

Nominating a safe place Royal Mail 

 

This is interesting though - another household member can  nominate a safe place and it applies to all household members as well as RM group companies - so if you set for parcel force it applies to RM

 

This will apply to the whole household and as we are part of the same Group, Parcelforce Worldwide will also follow these instructions.

Message 11 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

True. Royal Mail doesn't leave the parcel in a safe place unless it's requested. What was the photo though? Like it's being handed over or a photo of the item in front of a closed door?

Message 12 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Taken from the RM general terms and conditions (version 15) June 24 

 

2.12 If we are unable to deliver an Item because it does not fit through the letter box, no-one is available
to receive or sign for it and there is no other delivery instruction attached we may at our absolute
discretion deliver the Item to a safeplace location at the address written or printed on the Item, or to
a neighbour’s address, and leave a card for the Intended Recipient explaining where the Item has
been left. If we choose not to do so, the Item has been sent using Special Delivery or we cannot find
a neighbour or a suitable safeplace, we will take the Item back to our local premises and leave a card
at the address. The card will give the Intended Recipient the option to have the Item delivered to that
address later, or tell them where they can collect the Item from.

Message 13 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Correct but the safeplace location is not at the choice of the postie but has to already have been nominated by a house hold member direct with RM   or business customer signed up to Safeplace on the label on behalf of the recipient

 

This is detailed in the RM safe place terms and conditions - the terms and conditions you refer to are for business post and are worded to inform the business user that they agree to items being left in the customers safe place when no other instruction is on the label and the recipient is not in - it's to cover them if a claim is made by the business sender

 

However doorsteps are specifically excluded  as detailed below

 

 in a very small number of cases it won't be possible to follow the customer's Safeplace instructions. Examples of these include: if it would be dangerous for us to access the nominated point; if the item would be exposed to bad weather; or if the nominated point is clearly insecure. As an example, places we wouldn’t consider safe are bins, including recycling bins, doorsteps and underneath parked cars

Message 14 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Apologies RM can nominate a safe place  as detailed below - the customer has to opt out to avoid this. This applies to personal customers only -  

 

if you are not at home to accept delivery, we may deliver your item to a Safeplace location at the address without a specific instruction from you. In that case, it will only be if our Postperson deems that location to be within our guidelines (see “What is acceptable as a ‘Safeplace’?).

 

Your chosen Safeplace should be a secure, weatherproof area of the property, that is out of sight and easily accessible for us. Requests to place parcels in recycling bins are not considered as a Safeplace by Royal Mail.

Some examples of why we’d be unable to leave an item in a Safeplace are: it would be dangerous for us to access the nominated point; the item would be exposed to bad weather; if the nominated point is clearly insecure (for example, a doorstep or a recycling bin); or your item requires a signature and/or requires an Age or ID verification.

 

you can opt out of Safeplace, so we know to use alternative delivery options for your items if you’re not in. You can also contact our Customer Experience Team on 03457 740 740. We're open Monday to Friday 8am-6:30pm, Saturday 8am-3pm and Sunday 9am-2pm

Message 15 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep


@leadhills_scot wrote:

Taken from the RM general terms and conditions (version 15) June 24 

 

2.12 If we are unable to deliver an Item because it does not fit through the letter box, no-one is available
to receive or sign for it and there is no other delivery instruction attached we may at our absolute
discretion deliver the Item to a safeplace location at the address written or printed on the Item, or to
a neighbour’s address, and leave a card for the Intended Recipient explaining where the Item has
been left. If we choose not to do so, the Item has been sent using Special Delivery or we cannot find
a neighbour or a suitable safeplace, we will take the Item back to our local premises and leave a card
at the address. The card will give the Intended Recipient the option to have the Item delivered to that
address later, or tell them where they can collect the Item from.


 I remember when the safeplace/neighbour option came in, the postie came round with the sticker that you could put on your letterbox stating that this household doesn't accept the safeplace or neighbour option just so it was clear.

Message 16 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Wouldn't that be easier ! now you have to download the app to opt out or spend how long waiting for a human on the phone  to opt out.  

Message 17 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

Sorry, but I disagree with your first sentence, or more accurately, I agree that this is what should happen, but the fact is it often doesn't, causing problems for the recipient or sender (usually both). It's rarely either party's fault, but that of the delivery company / person.

 

The bit from RM's T&Cs quoted by *vyolla* is what should happen, but things are potentially made more complicated when they fail to follow their own protocols (and, although this post is mainly about RM, the same applies when other delivery companies fail to).

 

A recent example from experience. I had a RM delivery that wouldn't fit through the letterbox, and couldn't be in to take it. The postie left a red & white card stating 'Left in Safe Place - recycling bin'. I had not previously designated any safe place, and would much rather have been given the option - as should have happened - to collect it or arrange redelivery. (Just as well the package had been wrapped in polythene, as it had rained by the time I retrieved it.) Such actions obviously increase the potential for theft as well as weather-related damage.

 

This was not the first time I'd experienced this with a RM delivery. Some (most?) posties are clearly unwilling to follow their company rules, and (in the absence of a previously-designated safe place by the recipient) to return the item to the depot for a subsequent delivery attempt / collection / redirection to a different address, instead taking it upon themselves to leave it somewhere that they deem suitable.

 

Sometimes, it's not even the postie's fault, but RM's systems (e.g. when I selected an alternative delivery address prior to a first delivery attempt to my home, or following a missed delivery there, only for RM to try to deliver to my home (/again). That itself happened more than once, and when I went to the sorting office to try to find out what was going on (which not everyone would be in a position to do, especially given their limited opening hours), I always got a sincere apology, but no explanation other than the rather obvious "Something went wrong".

 

It's clear just from reading these boards that this sort of thing happens a lot, the worst example I read about recently being a courier (I don't think it was RM) leaving an item in a wheelie bin which had been emptied by the time the recipient got home. The recipient hadn't selected the bin as a safe place (and who in their right mind would, unless they were certain that it was indeed a safe place, and that it wouldn't end up pulverized in a truck before their return?). It was a (very poor) judgement call by the courier - again, with no input from the sender or the recepient.

 

In the case of my delivery, I was lucky. It was a router and digital voice box in separate packaging with a single polythene bag protecting both, sent by my broadband provider (if packaged separately, both items would have fit through my letterbox). But it could just as easily have been an eBay package, in which case it's unlikely that there'd have been a polythene bag. I have no insight into the postie's thought process - maybe they thought "Well, it's in a bag, so it should be okay left outside, even if it rains, and I'm sure no one will nick it", or maybe (and more likely, in my experience) they just couldn't be bothered to take it back to the depot like they were supposed to.

 

The point I'm making, in a very roundabout way (sorry), is that RM and other delivery service staff very often ignore the correct procedure and take actions not pre-arranged by the recipient. In an eBay context, this increases the chances of something going wrong for the buyer, the seller, or, usually and by consequence, both.

 

I wish that I could agree with you, but experience says otherwise. If the recipient has selected a safe space, then yes, that puts another slant (and an added layer of complexity) on it, and they can reasonably be expected to accept the risks that go with such a choice. It's when they don't even get to exercise a choice that things can get really gnarly.

 

As for your remark "Next time, be at your address", surely you'd agree it's not always that simple. People are out at work, or on other necessary business. Delivery dates can be missed, even supposedly 'guaranteed' ones. Emergencies or other unexpected events occur, requiring the recipient to leave home, sometimes immediately. Delivery staff ignore a note on the door (e.g. 'Bell not working, please knock loudly'), or don't even bother knocking or ringing at all. And that's before you add in delivery staff making their own minds up about whether, and where, to leave an item on the premises. All the above is beyond the control of both sender and recipient. Okay, you could say that the recipient should ensure that their bell's working, but they could be a tenant with a bad landlord, or the bell may have only just stopped working without them knowing, or it could be awaiting repair/replacement. And as for emergencies, well, if someone received a call saying "Your mum's just had a heart attack, she's in hospital", how likely are they to say, "I'll be there as soon as I can, I just have to wait for my eBay order to arrive, as it won't fit through the letterbox" or "I'll get there just as soon as I've designated a safe place on RM's website for my package"?

 

I know I'm drilling down deep here (an habitual tendency), but I'm merely trying to illustrate just how many factors can come into play. Things often fail to go smoothly to plan, even with systems in place that are designed to ensure that they do (speaking mainly for myself here, so maybe I'm just unlucky). For systems to work properly, not only do the systems themselves need to be fit for purpose, but the people working within them need to be 'integated' with them, which I know sounds mechanistic and a bit '1984'-ish, but it's a fact. In this example, the postie should have followed the system and returned the package to the depot, rather than 'going rogue' and dumping it in a place of their choosing.

 

I truly don't mean to sound hostile or argumentative, so forgive me if you think I do. I'm both a buyer and a seller (no recent activity on either front due to finances and eBay's growing number of issues), and I'm trying to look at the matter sympathetically and objectively (not convinced that this is necessarily a contradiction in terms) from both perspectives. I just think that "Next time, be at home" is tad over-simplistic (and would sometimes require a crystal ball). I've had a large number of messed-up deliveries through no fault of my own and despite my efforts to ensure receipt (mostly non-eBay purchases, and due to my previous address which was a bit awkward to deliver anything but a letter / small package to - so sellers, please don't add me to your BBLs pre-emptively!). I've always managed to get the package in my hands in the end, but it's often involved a lot of time and effort on my part when it really shouldn't have.

 

Interesting thread, and I wouldn't say that anyone's posts are totally right or wrong, the subject is a many-headed beast! It's food for thought to see so many perspectives.

 

I'll give everyone's eyes a rest now

 

[As usual, I've spent so long typing and tweaking that I've missed subsequent responses, so apologies if I've repeated what others have said.]

Message 18 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

You may not wish to read my wall of text reply to you, so I'll give you the tl;dr version:

 

They (RM) shouldn't, but they do. Happened to me very recently - they left a package in my recycling bin (writing "Safe Place - recycle bin" on the card) despite me not designating any safe place whatsoever. No previous delivery attempt, either.

Message 19 of 48
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Buyer claiming parcel was stolen from doorstep

"Royal Mail safe places has to be requested by the recipient - they are not allowed to make that choice themselves."

 

Interesting - maybe I ought to complain to RM in that case, as I don't want my recent experience to set a precedent. Knowing my luck, though, the postie(s) would then do it out of pure spite!

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