What if?

[cee-dee]

OK, so no-one wants to argue any more but what if.........................

A couple of years back referendum was called about either staying in or leaving the EU and the majority voted to leave. Since then arguments have raged back and forth and the remainers are agitating for another referendum.

What if they had another vote and this time the result was to remain BUT, then the leavers started agitating for another making claims for this, that or the other? Would the remainers claim "We had a democratic vote so that's that, we remain IN".

We had a democratic vote before though? The result of that was to LEAVE so if a second vote went the other way would any notice be taken of leavers wanting yet another?? If not, why not?

Shouldn't a vote on something be IT as regards any result not a cause for those who didn't like the result to agitate for another? Where does it end?

By that reckoning it could result in a parliamentry vote for a constituency which ended in a close vote for one person then having those opposed to then claim it was "close" so they demand another go? How many "go's" do you want?

[cee-dee]

Well now we're face with a right shambles. What on earth do they think will happen should they get their wish to oust TM?

I think a change would weaken out position with the EU, I just can't see what "they" would gain except their self-interest.

[upthecreekyetagain]

The ‘benefit’ of a leadership challenge depends on which side of the fence you are on.

For Mrs May and her supporters and/or supporters of ‘her’ deal the potential benefit of winning the vote of confidence is that it makes her ‘safe’ for at least year - well after the scheduled Brexit date and much of the transition period for any deal.

For her opponents the big ‘benefit’ if she does lose the vote is that the Brexit date will almost certainly be delayed.  A delay will give the ‘remainers’ within the party more time to manoeuvre for a second referendum and for the hard Brexiteers to push for an exit with no deal.

[cee-dee]

Yes, that's a true assessment but what does it do for "negotiations" with the EU?

I don't think it'll help much if at all and in all probability will weaken our position not strenghten it.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Again, depends on which side of the fence you are on.  

If May wins then I can’t see much harm done - it may even strengthen her position with the EU.

If she loses and ‘hard’ Brexiteers such as Rees Mogg or Johnson, gain control of the negotiations, (either directly or via a proxy), then we could well be in trouble and exit without a deal becomes far more likely.

Many at first would probably welcome this but they need to look at the motives behind the hard line such politicians take.  They are not interested, in my opinion, in the little people. They’re looking for a low tax, low regulation system with a low cost labour force.  Such a system relies on immigration to supply that labour force.  Oh yes the EU won’t be able to dictate our immigration policy but neither will the people, they will.

[upthecreekyetagain]

As someone who believes the British people should have a vote as outlined earlier in this thread I should be cheering for May to lose but the concern that the likes of Rees Mogg or Johnson gain control of the negotiations is real.

I’ve never voted for any Conservative politician but I do think May is genuinely trying to get the best for the UK whilst at the same trying to deliver a measured exit from the EU.  I can’t think of any politician, of whichever political flavour, that would be doing a better job or have a better chance of negotiating the best possible deal for the UK.

[fallen-archie]

I agree with Creeky, Mrs May has had to put up with the kind of abuse that were it to have been given out on Corbyn would have had the internet in meltdown. She has tried to appease all and instead has incurred the wrath of every radical on the planet! If Bojo or Greasemug become pm I predict a long time in the wilderness for us all, if Corbyn becomes Pm it will be even longer starting with a burst of joy and ending in tears!

[cee-dee]

I dunno about ending in tears, it'd end up with the country in severe debt!

[cee-dee]

It's a bit late but who's gonna have a go at predicting the result of the vote?

May to win?  My vote:- X

May to lose?

[margaret*e]

I think she’ll win by a very narrow margin.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Almost 2 to 1 victory

[celticthebhoys585]

Well you could look at another way,she lost by 2:1

Apparently Lord Snooty himself said that -if you take away the payroll MP's she lost! 

117 is a massive amount of your own MP's to have lost faith in you as party leader.But the funny old thing is if there was a vote of no confo in government tomorrow those same 117 MP's possibly think it's still aweright to run the country.

Funny old thing democracy isn't it .It's awe right when it suits you.

[algasmoon]

Mrs May has no self respect.

As a remainer leaading a brexit deal its totally obvious that she has an agenda, just as did cameron when he failed to make changes which made the referendum happen, god knows what the eu have on her but it must be substantial, europe is a dead duck, and a remainer leading for brexit shows how totally unrelated to the public she is. All the leavers i know voted TO LEAVE, not get a rough deal it was never going to be a good deal, chickens dont vote for paxo, so no remainer would ever comply with a leave vote, 2 years wasted. Just for gods sake leave. What makes me laugh is this...all these people who dont want a house of lords, me included, due to being unelected, cry close it down....but want an equaly unelected bunch in brussels to take control! 

How do they make that dot to dot picture work then?  Thick or just not intelligent enough to see the parallel?

[cee-dee]

So it's OK for Corbyn to lose a vote of no confidence by 172 to 40 but it's not OK for TM to win by 200 to 117?

[celticthebhoys585]

What has that got to do with the price of bread? You need to ask Lord Snooty! I don't care who leads the Blu's or Rid's 

[joe_bloggs*]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

So it's OK for Corbyn to lose a vote of no confidence by 172 to 40 but it's not OK for TM to win by 200 to 117?

---

Corbyn is not in government yet,bit of a difference ! ,The only reason may won,was because there is no sucessor they could unite around,If  Labour tables a no-confidence motion it can now ask 117 Tory MPs: "If Theresa May isn't fit to lead your party, why is she fit to lead the country?"

[upthecreekyetagain]

If you don’t like the idea of TM, a self proclaimed remainer, leading the Brexit negotiations then how would you like that leadership to change? - remembering that one of the main tenets of the leave campaign was that the UK should have the sovereign right to make its own laws which surely has to include party rules as well as electoral laws.

If there were a way to have a change in leadership then who would you choose and what sort of possible deal/no deal could they come up with that would gain a majority vote in Parliament?

The simple truth is that it doesn’t matter one iota who is leading the negotiations and what they achieve it is not going to be good enough for a majority of MPs.  With different groups having mutually exclusive aims you are never going to get a consensus.

We are stumbling towards either a no deal exit or no exit at all - the former will certainly suit the likes of Rees Mogg and Johnson, the latter will leave us with a divided populace and a weakened position as a continuing member of the EU.

[algasmoon]

I dont care who leads, but it must be a person who supports Brexit in line with being a democracy. No deal is fine, project fear yet again, on that ground, the eu will be much more likely to want to sell us their goods, as a remainer, she was like a poker player showing her hand at the beginning of the game and it has been ridiculous.  We go around the world proclaiming, even demanding, their taking on democracy as a way forward - how can we do that again? 

Its so obvious that a person without such deceit and agenda would be better than her.  She is a humiliation not just to herself, but to the country as a whole.  The newsagent down the road would be better than her, stubborn arrogant and self serving. I hope Corbyn calls an election tomorrow if its possible at all, because...she said she wouldnt stand at the next one, so bring it on i say, more thaqn one way to skin a selfish cat.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Forget so called “project fear” for just one moment and look at something far more serious for many.

You state, “no deal is fine” - so I take it you consider it “fine” to scrap The Good Friday Agreement and have a hard border imposed between the North and South in Ireland?

How would you hope to see that approved in Parliament irrespective of who was “in charge”.

[cee-dee]

The "Irish problem" has gone on far, far too long. It's high time Ireland was "united" and done with.

If there's to be two separate countries, a hard border is inevitable. You can't have a free-for-all, do-as-you-like where customs duty is concerned.

[upthecreekyetagain]

How would you do that?

Isn’t the big claim by those wanting a no-deal Brexit that democracy is sacrosanct and that the referendum decision must be carried out?

Written into the Good Friday agreement, ratified by the UN, is the right for those living in NI to have a binding referendum to decide on a unified Ireland.  The only problem is that there isn’t anywhere near a majority in favour.

So would you force a unification?  How democratic would that be?