03-09-2014 8:43 PM
At approx 5pm this afternoon, the Port of Calais was stormed / invaded by between 70 to 80 migrants. They ran riot throughout the Docks, overwhelming all border force and Port Staff. Some tried to forcibly board ferries that were in the Port at the time, the Captains ordered the Ferry's Hoses to be used to repel the migrants ( this was done successfully ). They also stormed scores of Lorries, hiding in many of them. No french Police were present, except for the handful present on Duty at the Docks; reinforcements arrived too late to do anything. Three lorries were found to contain migrants and were searched ( confirming this fact ). When this is done, the other Lorries have to be waived through, otherwise Ferry sailing are delayed...........therefore, at least 65 Lorries were loaded on the Ferry(s) without being searched ( how many migrants are on those, is anybodies guess ). Contrary to reports, there are between 5000 to 7000 migrants in Calais, waiting with the sole intention of getting into this Country. When they are caught, stowed away on Lorries, they are simply removed by the French Police; taken down the Road and released again. The French are content ( so it would seem ) to just let them stay there, growing in number day by day. This is just to let you know the truth of the matter and it is getting worse each and every day. This is the Europe ( the Friends ) that we are told we are better off being a part of, one for all and all for one; helping each other.........Partners ( I think that's the terminology used ).
09-09-2014 8:18 AM
@astrologica wrote:
Lambsy....of course I know what a crisis is....without looking at a dictionary. As I said before....I had a very good education, like a lot of others on here. I really don't understand why that should merit snide remarks and laughter, to say nothing of insults,
This subject is exactly that....subjective. Obviously you have a totally different take on events taking place in this country...and in Calais. I still maintain that that situation has escalated to a crisis, and remains so. My views are formed totally by what I see around me, and to a certain extent, what I see on TV. You may not see the things that I see, so you have a different opinion.
Only time will tell how this immigration issue will pan out....but I remain very pessimistic about it all. And a lot of others feel exactly the same. But of course, if one says this, one gets accused of 'foaming, spitting out one's dummy, scaremongering' etc. Well....we shall see what happens.
I don't believe I've laughed at you at any time, certainly haven't used insults and I don't believe I have used snide remarks either. Questions and requests for clarification or evidence yes, but not intended to be snide, if I have come across that way I apologise.
Perhaps where we differ is the way we approach the subject, as you say you view it subjectively, so you form a personal view based on things that have made an impression on you. Unfortunately the TV may not be the best influence as they tend to seek ratings and try to influence opinion rather than just report the facts. I prefer to approach things objectively; forming a picture based on evidence that is impartial, unprejudiced, fair, detached and open-minded. So our views are likely to differ.
It is actually a fallacy that all opinions are equal; the truth is we all have equal right to express our opinions but that does not mean the opinions are equally valid. When listening to an opinion people seek evidence, the more valid opinions are those that can be supported by evidence and that's why I prefer to be objective!
09-09-2014 8:29 AM
@astrologica wrote:
Please explain....what is actually funny about being well educated? A good education is a very desirable thing, and something that not everyone experiences.
Very true Astro but an education only provides the tools, how we use these is important.
I remember writing essays during my education, asking us to anaylise or discuss. We were expected to look at things from all angles, give alternate views, study pros and cons and provide evidence that would support a conclusion. I'd guess this is still the foundation of education today!
09-09-2014 10:03 AM
@astrologica wrote:
Please explain....what is actually funny about being well educated? A good education is a very desirable thing, and something that not everyone experiences.
Nothing is funny about being well educated; someone self-assessing themselves as so when they're clearly not is another matter. I agree a good education is a very desirable thing, particularly as *evidence* suggests the more educated someone is, the less xenophobic they are...
The fewer immigrants you know, the more you'll fear them
There's much to be depressed about in the new British Social Attitudes survey. A staggering 74% of people believe it's important to have been born in Britain to be considered "truly" British. At the same time, people's pride in being British has fallen through the floor, with just 35% saying they are 'very proud' to be British, compared to 43% in 2003. The public are particularly unsympathetic about spousal visas. It seems many have become sufficiently angry about immigration to support couples being split up and children raised by just one parent.
But look a little deeper into the survey and there are reasons for cautious optimism. British attitudes to immigration are increasingly split: well educated, economically and socially advantaged groups are more pro-immigration. The grading is quite clear. Sixty-per cent of graduates think immigration has been good for Britain, the figure drops to 32% for those whose highest qualification is at A-level or equivalent, and just 17% for those with no qualifications.
People who live in London, or know a few migrants, are more pro-immigration. Those who are more aware of policies and people's reasons for immigrating are more pro-immigration. The further away you are from the impact of immigration the more anti-immigration you tend to be. People who are anti-immigration tend to have views which are furthest away from reality – either in terms of economic performance, current policy or migrant behaviour.
Long-term trends
Despite the ferocious rhetoric around immigration from Ukip and their friends in the tabloid press, opposition to immigration has not actually increased. In 2013, 77% of people want immigration reduced. It's an increase on 1995, when the figure stood at 63%, but is mostly unchanged since 2008. The public's view of immigration is at least stable – it is not getting worse. Things are probably about as bad as they're likely to get.
In fact they will probably get better. The long term demographic trends show the rise of groups who are most sympathetic to immigration and the decline of those who are most hostile.
Age is a factor. A recent survey found 57% of under-34s consider immigration either good or neutral for the economy. Earlier this week, a YouGov survey found eight out of ten people about to vote for the first time were proud of Britain's legacy of offering refuge to those who need it most.
University graduates and professionals, who are typically most pro-immigration, are growing. Unskilled manual workers and those with no qualifications, who are most anti-immigration, are in sharp decline. There are, of course, other reasons to welcome this trend, but on the matter of immigration it is particularly acute: the better you educate someone, the more pro-immigration they become.
No doubt many believe unskilled workers are more anti-immigrant because they are the ones competing with them for jobs, but that is not necessarily the case. The survey suggests it is "those most removed from direct experience of immigration who find it the most threatening".
Londoners, those with mixed heritage and those with migrant friends – in other words, people who actually come into contact with migrants – are overall more positive about immigration's effects. Older voters and those with no migrant friends are the most hostile. Just 17% of those aged over 70 think immigration had a positive impact on Britain's economy, while 53% think it has a negative impact. That compares to 36% to 40% among those aged 19-29. Over half of Londoners think immigration has benefitted Britain's economy – nearly double the figure found elsewhere.
It's also worth keeping a balanced view of current attitudes. While the overall picture is clearly negative, around half the public feel immigration has not had negative economic or cultural effects.
The survey also offers some hope to those who believe anti-immigrant views can be challenged if we have advocates who are willing to make the case for it, rather than just ape the rhetoric of Ukip.
The relationship between ignorance of reality and anti-immigration belief is very strong. Researchers tested respondents on whether they were aware of the limit on work permits offered to non-EU migrants. Just under half (45%) answered correctly that it existed, while 42% answered wrongly that it did not. Fourteen per cent didn't know.
Those who were aware of the system were much more positive about the contribution labour migrants make, with 27% saying the benefits of migration outweighed the cost, compared to 13% of those who answered correctly. Twenty five per cent thought non-EU migrants cost more than they contributed, but this compared to 39% who gave the wrong answer.
As the authors say, this could relate to other variables, most obviously education. But it suggests that making people aware that our system is not actually out of control and that there are restrictions in place does lessen concern about immigration. If you challenge anti-immigrant narratives, you can reassure people. Unfortunately, it won't be politicians who do this. The proportion of people who trust government "just about always" or "most of the time" is 17% - down from 38% in 1986.
There are signs people's assessment of immigration is at least partly a result of tabloid hysteria and comments from anti-immigration politicians. Statistics suggest study and work are the two prime motivators in immigration. Asylum is a drop in the ocean. But it is cited much more frequently as a main motive by survey respondents. Welfare is mentioned spontaneously by eight per cent of respondents even when it did not feature on the list of options. That figure rose to 24% when it did.
These assumptions are largely dependent on the respondent's view on immigration. A large majority of those positive about immigration – and a modest majority of those who thought it was neutral – thought work was the primary motivator. Those with negative views typically think the primary motivation is welfare or asylum. Those with the most negative views about migrants are the most likely to have concerns about 'benefit tourism'. Only a tiny minority of those who are positive about immigration feel the same.
In reality, European migrants have to show they are earning at least £149 a week for three months before they can access a range of benefits. There is little evidence of migration imposing major costs on the welfare system, and many academic papers have found migrants are not a drain on the national purse. Actually, they are less likely to claim benefits than native Brits and more likely to work.
This negative fantasy pervades the statistics. People see what they want to see and typically what they want to see is something negative. People have varying views of different immigrant groups, but they tend to over-estimate the prominence of groups they least like.
It's hard to be upbeat about results which so plainly show discomfort with immigration alongside ignorance of migrant intentions or current restrictions. But there are reasons to be positive. The long-term trends in education, generational attitudes and contact with migrants suggest we have reached the worst point of anti-immigrant sentiment.
And the connection between ignorance and anti-immigrant thinking suggests that there is a point to countering the perpetual anti-immigrant rhetoric of the tabloid press and unscrupulous politicians and commentators. After all, where did people get the impression welfare played such a disproportionate role in immigration from? People did not construct it out of thin air. When newspapers plaster their front pages with this stuff every day, it has an effect. This effect is consolidated when ministers like Theresa May then make public statements and pass laws which play to this imaginary problem rather than establish the reality.
Forcefully and unapologetically making the economic and cultural case for immigration can change minds. Finding and promoting the truth about migrant intentions and behaviour can make a difference on public opinion. And as the years pass and the minority population of the UK continues to grow, education levels rise, and more and more people come into contact with migrants, the picture should improve.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/06/17/the-fewer-immigrants-you-know-the-more-you-ll-fear-them
09-09-2014 12:53 PM
09-09-2014 2:32 PM
Since starting this thread, at NO time have I implied, or meant to imply, that immigrants ( or the peoples of any Country on this Earth ) have less of a right to live and breathe its air than I do. My whole train of thought was simply coping with the influx from a monetary and Infrastructure point of view. There was a piece of the local news about the immigrants in Calais ( yet again ) waiting to come over here specifically. It focused on a Single mother from Eritrea, with her Child ( 4 years old ); who was uneducated and unskilled. Now if that woman gets here, how on Gods earth is she going to get a job, that pays enough to keep Her, on Her own, let alone Her Child..........Accommodation, Food, Clothes, Utility Bills, Transport, etc. etc.etc. So She would be on benefits Big Time. The news piece also said there was a large number of children, under 12 years old, on their own, also trying to get here............Benefits Big Time AGAIN !! This, at a time when various sections of the workforce, in this Country, are complaining because they haven't had a pay rise, worth talking about, since 2008. At a time when the people of this Country are complaining about cuts in the welfare budget and the effects they are having on them. If somebody seems to think the Maths of this equation balances, then I wish to God they'd explain it to me; because I can't see it. It's not about the Immigrants as people, it's about Immigrants as a drain on an economy that doesn't have limitless resources. It's not about Immigrants who pay they way........GREAT !! it's about the ones who don't, most of the time; because they simply can't.
09-09-2014 2:54 PM
@evoman3957 wrote:Since starting this thread, at NO time have I implied, or meant to imply, that immigrants ( or the peoples of any Country on this Earth ) have less of a right to live and breathe its air than I do. My whole train of thought was simply coping with the influx from a monetary and Infrastructure point of view. There was a piece of the local news about the immigrants in Calais ( yet again ) waiting to come over here specifically. It focused on a Single mother from Eritrea, with her Child ( 4 years old ); who was uneducated and unskilled. Now if that woman gets here, how on Gods earth is she going to get a job, that pays enough to keep Her, on Her own, let alone Her Child..........Accommodation, Food, Clothes, Utility Bills, Transport, etc. etc.etc. So She would be on benefits Big Time. The news piece also said there was a large number of children, under 12 years old, on their own, also trying to get here............Benefits Big Time AGAIN !! This, at a time when various sections of the workforce, in this Country, are complaining because they haven't had a pay rise, worth talking about, since 2008. At a time when the people of this Country are complaining about cuts in the welfare budget and the effects they are having on them. If somebody seems to think the Maths of this equation balances, then I wish to God they'd explain it to me; because I can't see it. It's not about the Immigrants as people, it's about Immigrants as a drain on an economy that doesn't have limitless resources. It's not about Immigrants who pay they way........GREAT !! it's about the ones who don't, most of the time; because they simply can't.
I appreciate your concerns Evo but what are your thoughts about benevolence? The woman with no education, do you think we could perhaps provide her with one. Is she beyond help or just needs a helping hand to fend for herself? Those under 12s trying to get here, is there nothing we can do for them?
We are not a poor nation, those you mention are truly poor, perhaps we could reach out a hand, what you reckon?
09-09-2014 3:05 PM
@astrologica wrote:
The opening lines of that post show what the poster is really like....quite happy to judge another person and their achievements in life whilst knowing very little about them. Once again he/she managed to bring a nasty tone to what was a perfectly good thread.
As you have just done...And have you read Merehazel's posts perchance? What exactly have they added to the "debate"? If you think my tone is more 'nasty' than others in this thread then I suggest you give your head a wobble & have a re-read.
The fact you have completely ignored all the *evidence* supporting my argument and instead tried to divert the thread into wails of bogus victimhood speaks volumes - An 'educated' person would at least try to rebut some of the points in the post above, rather than hit the flounce button and hope the thread gets locked due to "personal disputes"..
Fact is, people who lack education and/or have had sheltered lives tend to be more hostile to immigrants & immigration. They also seem to have a tendency to lose the debate and start throwing teddies when they do.
09-09-2014 4:34 PM
As the saying goes "there for the grace of God go I"........not that I'm a believer, but the sentiment is what's important and I'm only too well aware of that. Perhaps I don't go to these Countries, because in reality; I couldn't stand by and watch a Child starve to death. Would I stretch out a Hand................of course I would, could I see the point in one person starving to death; because they gave all their food to another..........I don't know so much. Are there a million ways in which this could be made a better World...............of course there are. Is the will there by everybody ( because that's what it would ultimately take )...............to the detriment of My Species, I have to say NO it isn't.
09-09-2014 5:40 PM
09-09-2014 6:05 PM
09-09-2014 8:56 PM
Whatever Merehazle writes is up to him
Then by and within the same common rules, whatever bookhunter writes is up to him surely? Or are you suggesting there are different rules for different posters?
If someone has no wish to take part in any debate, why repeatedly post on the thread? Actually it's as usual not a debate by some, merely a desire on behalf of a few for a confirmation of prejudice, via mutual rant.That's not seeking understanding and is counter 'educational' .
A good education whatever that may mean, would not lead to an approach which broadly states 'I don't care what the evidence is or that it doesn't support me, I don't care about evidence, facts or informed discussion, I know what I know and I cannot be disagreed with' That path leads to ignorance; assuming it was not already a starting point.
Someone's hostility to immigrants or otherwise, would be an objective, not subjective assessment, same as views on ethnicity otherwise such posters would start some of their comments with ..I am not a ............but.....
If anyone declines to take part with those who make what one considers adverse comments, then one wouldn't be excluding obvious allies who somehow remain 'excused' on the grounds 'what they write is up to them' indicating they have special rules applied to their posts, as supporters.
Merely consistently posting on a thread just to try to goad another for nefarious purposes, is also nothing to do with debate just the usual 'immune' response by some to those whose views they consider 'better off elsewhere.
' Certain 'topics' and this is one, have a long, and very unfortunate history here.Time and much reduced numbers have not changed that much.
The foolish notion that all AS head here is false. A cherished notion it may be for some, but it's not fact! That said, start the same thread later, and out it will pop again held up as some cast-iron law.
Ironic that one poster is often baited for her religious views, held up as 'dogma' and without foundation, by some of the same.
09-09-2014 8:58 PM
Hi all,
We already asked to keepthe discussion on topic and keep things civil.
I'm very sorry, but this topic is now locked.
Regards,
daniel.pi