Shooting in Paris

[hyperrush]

This is horrible, getting the newscast 36 dead innocents 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-liv...

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

You posted this on the horse thread the other day.

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

I wish I was in a position to offer some practical help but I'm physically, (and financially), unable to do so at the moment - we are currently 'looking after' four horses.

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If we use your quote as an analogy, we as a nation can't physically or financially take in anymore refugees.

But leaving this aside for a moment let me ask you this question.

As you are at full capacity at the moment with four horses if you were forced to take in one more horse which didn't mix with the other four and could cause them possible harm.....

What would you do in this situation, get rid of the four who lived in some sort of harmony or get rid of the one causing the unrest ?

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Neither - in a way that was exactly the situation we found ourselves in when we took in the last two horses - one of which just would not 'get on' with one of the original two.  We managed the situation and still have all four horses.  If push came to shove and we had to take in a fifth horse we certainly would not 'get rid of' any of them if doing so meant that they would be in danger or come to harm.!

[fallen-archie]

Yes as I was writing it I thought you would sieze the opportunty to suggest duplicity. What I can agree on is that we are all Human, however to coin another analogy, when in Rome.................

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

You are quite right Creeky...integration doesn't require everyone to be the same. But it does require that everyone has the desire to be integrated. This country has fallen over backwards to include and integrate people of other faiths and races, but the fact is that you cannot force people to integrate if they don't want to. 

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I agree.  Atempting to force people to integrate will never work - however people don't live forever and the best chance of ensuring that the second, third, fourth generation do integrate is not to show hostility to the first generation immigrants.

The first generation of Caribean immigrants did not really integrate either and the racial discrimination exhibited by many which was not made illegal until the late sixties did not encourage the second and third generation to integrate either and led to the race riots of the eighties.  Later generations are now much more an integral part of British society.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

Yes as I was writing it I thought you would sieze the opportunty to suggest duplicity. What I can agree on is that we are all Human, however to coin another analogy, when in Rome.................

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Not accusing you of anything - was simply highlighting what appears on the face of it two contradictory statements

Actually having reread the relevant posts I can see how they could be compatible.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your first post suggests that the increase in the numbers overtly displaying their religious beliefs suggests that those individuals are being 'defiant' towards those that show hostility towards their religion which suggests they don't want to integrate with those individuals.  Your second post is reiterating what most right thinking individuals believe that individuals should be able to practice and be proud of their religious beliefs.

Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth and the above is not what you were suggesting, if so my apologies.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Caribean = Caribbean - hope that's the correct spelling 🙂

[artful_dodgings]

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march - I believe someone mentioned it back there -  and show a bit of sympathy and compassion for those killed and maimed, and denounce those responsible. After all, they've managed to march in full throes waving placards before, when the agenda suited them. But I suppose that's about as likely to happen as would have been the case of Maggie Thatcher, suddenly deciding on taking a morning stroll down Ashington High Street. Absolute zero.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march - I believe someone mentioned it back there -  and show a bit of sympathy and compassion for those killed and maimed, and denounce those responsible. After all, they've managed to march in full throes waving placards before, when the agenda suited them. But I suppose that's about as likely to happen as would have been the case of Maggie Thatcher, suddenly deciding on taking a morning stroll down Ashington High Street. Absolute zero.

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Wouldn't organising a 'Muslim' march against ISIS, (such as the one in Edgware Road, London last year - http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/london-news/british-muslims-stage-anti-isis-protest... ) demonstrate their separateness rather than being part of society in general.

Far better, in my opinion, to see Muslims taking part in commemoration and/or protest rallies alongside the general population.

As for being 'fellow countrymen' !

[merehazle]

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march - I believe someone mentioned it back there -  and show a bit of sympathy and compassion for those killed and maimed, and denounce those responsible. After all, they've managed to march in full throes waving placards before, when the agenda suited them. But I suppose that's about as likely to happen as would have been the case of Maggie Thatcher, suddenly deciding on taking a morning stroll down Ashington High Street. Absolute zero.

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At # 77. I mentioned it artful.

If I could put myself in the shoes of a regular Muslim, I would find it hard not say, ''Not in my name,'' etc, because that's how it is at that level I imagine. On the other hand, is it difficult for those ''regular Muslims'' to accept that, if taken literally in many ways, the Quran/Hadith can lead to such things? Is it taboo to go there? Is it difficult to realise that this is what the jihadists are doing, outside of any other influencing factors?

Just thought I would get in a few words and let someone carry on....... Oh, I might offer a DROP of poetry later.

Well as an interlude . 

[lightblueberet]

If I'm not mistaken, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, ISIS is largely made up from the late Sadam's defeated and humiliated armed forces, 'humiliated' being the key word here !

Shouldn't Western leaders, instead of talking to their Mid.East counterparts as they've done so far, start communicating with the Sunni religious leaders ? If anyone has any influence, surely it is them !

I don't think the bombing operations in Raqqa will make much difference...apparently ISIS have already moved operations to Mosul in Iraq. Land forces recapturing the oil fields...now that would produce results !

That's where the ISIS monster is fed ! ! !

[*.*..lola..*.*]

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march - I believe someone mentioned it back there - and show a bit of sympathy and compassion for those killed and maimed, and denounce those responsible.

All of those things are being done, Arty on a local level which doesn't necessarily make headline news unfortunately.

Locally, Imams are calling special meetings and discussions with members of their own Muslim communities and I know for a fact that a 'Not in my name' march was held recently in Luton.

I used to live in Luton and there is an area called Bury Park which houses a very large Muslim community. They have a Facebook page which makes interesting reading because it shows the anger and despair being felt by people from both sides of the coin:

https://www.facebook.com/Spotted-Luton-Bury-Park-1500356466922345/?fref=ts

This video is also well worth a watch:

https://www.facebook.com/EducateInspireChange.org/videos/893700197383925/?pnref=story

[merehazle]

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@vasos92 wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, ISIS is largely made up from the late Sadam's defeated and humiliated armed forces, 'humiliated' being the key word here !

Shouldn't Western leaders, instead of talking to their Mid.East counterparts as they've done so far, start communicating with the Sunni religious leaders ? If anyone has any influence, surely it is them !

I don't think the bombing operations in Raqqa will make much difference...apparently ISIS have already moved operations to Mosul in Iraq. Land forces recapturing the oil fields...now that would produce results !

That's where the ISIS monster is fed ! ! !

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That's about right. IMO too.

What ever happens now another group will spring up. They have been murdering each other for thousand of years, nothing will change. Hopefully though we will learn a lesson. Cruel dictators are necessary to keep them under control. We did not create ISIS but we did foster their growth (well Blair& Bush did) that caused them to be a worldwide threat.

Actually they are no more than gangsters. If some finance them they will do it no matter what it is. That's why the world WILL act. 

'Shouldn't Western leaders, instead of talking to their Mid.East counterparts as they've done so far, start communicating with the Sunni religious leaders?  If anyone has influence, surely it's them'   Absolutely, well said.

Whatever, we need to eliminate them then stay the hell out of the politics of the middle east.  I might be back tonight with tea & bicuits. See you.

[joe_bloggs*]

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@vasos92 wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, ISIS is largely made up from the late Sadam's defeated and humiliated armed forces, 'humiliated' being the key word here !

Shouldn't Western leaders, instead of talking to their Mid.East counterparts as they've done so far, start communicating with the Sunni religious leaders ? If anyone has any influence, surely it is them !

I don't think the bombing operations in Raqqa will make much difference...apparently ISIS have already moved operations to Mosul in Iraq. Land forces recapturing the oil fields...now that would produce results !

That's where the ISIS monster is fed ! ! !

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Around 500 fuel tanker vehicles transporting illegal oil from Syria to Iraq for processing have been destroyed by Russia’s Air Forces, the General Staff said.

“In recent years, Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) and other extremist groups have organized the operations of the so-called ‘pipeline on wheels’ on the territories they control,” Russian General Staff spokesman Colonel General Andrey Kartapolov said.

Hundreds of thousands of tons of fuel have been delivered to Iraq for processing by trucks and the revenue generated from these illegal exports is the one of the terrorists’ main sources of funding, he said.  

https://www.rt.com/news/322614-russian-warplanes-isis-oil-trucks/

[astrologica]

Vasos....I can recommend Suzie's link from earlier in this thread. (Thank you Suzie!) It's very good and gives a good insight into their mindset and what they want. Talking is definitely not on their agenda.

[mikes*corvettes]

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march

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They did but only 30 out of 5 million could make it the rest were busy on that day.

http://pamelageller.com/2015/11/france-only-30-muslims-show-up-for-rally-against-paris-jihad-attacks...

[i-am-legion-too]

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march

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They did but only 30 out of 5 million could make it the rest were busy on that day.

http://pamelageller.com/2015/11/france-only-30-muslims-show-up-for-rally-against-paris-jihad-attacks...

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Some might consider the author to your link, Pamela Geller, to be almost as extreme as those she criticises at every opportunity.

[mikes*corvettes]

Whatever her politics, I think the figures speak for themselves.

[evoman3957]

The problem is that Christianity is one of the most tolerant religions ( at least now it is ), even the more ardent of it's followers ie. Roman Catholics, along with the more devout evangelists and others; are fairly easy going about there dealings with others. I have friends, She is a devout christian ( church every Sunday, the odd pilgrimage and bible groups etc. etc. ) her Husband is a non believer, never goes to church and does his thing, when she goes off to do Her stuff etc. etc. She doesn't mind at all, loves him to bits and doesn't try to shove it down his throat or scoff at him for HIS lack of belief.........they get on like a house on fire and have done for years. Islam, on the other hand, is more a "Way of life" ,can you imagine that scenario in a Muslim family; never in a million years. So given the fact that the two religions are such poles apart, why on earth would Muslims want to come here; instead of another Country where Islam is the predominant religion. Added to that, is the fact that I am not aware that many other predominantly Muslim Countries haven't exactly welcomed their brothers with open Arms; given that most of them appear to want to kill each other anyway ie. Shia / Sunni etc. etc. Yet WE......the infidels.....the lowest of the low non believers etc. etc. are supposed to show the tolerance and understanding that others, of the same faith, appear not to be able to. If it wasn't so stupidly, hilariously funny.........it would be sad beyond belief.

[cee-dee]

With emigration to "foreign" countries, the hidden agenda with those people is that ultimately they'll make a move for  complete take-over!

[merehazle]

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march

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They did but only 30 out of 5 million could make it the rest were busy on that day.

http://pamelageller.com/2015/11/france-only-30-muslims-show-up-for-rally-against-paris-jihad-attacks...

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Yes, arty. And some will remember this:   

Sunday, 16 February 2003.  A million MARCH against Iraq war. Police said it was UK'S biggest ever demonstration with at least 750,000 taking part, although organises put the figure closer to two million. Yes, that's a MARCH.

That's the reason I resent the passive - aggressive message from Corbyn's pacifist stance that implies it's all our fault in the first place. Our people did NOT want the damn war. Our leaders (Blair & Co, did). 

Google 'million march against Iraq war' if you need more information?      See you.

[joe_bloggs*]

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@merehazle wrote:

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@mikes*corvettes wrote:

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

I could show a bit more empathy towards the Muslim community if, on occasions like this, when their terrorist fellow countrymen strike, they could condescend to organising a march

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They did but only 30 out of 5 million could make it the rest were busy on that day.

http://pamelageller.com/2015/11/france-only-30-muslims-show-up-for-rally-against-paris-jihad-attacks...

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Yes, arty. And some will remember this:   

Sunday, 16 February 2003.  A million MARCH against Iraq war. Police said it was UK'S biggest ever demonstration with at least 750,000 taking part, although organises put the figure closer to two million. Yes, that's a MARCH.

That's the reason I resent the passive - aggressive message from Corbyn's pacifist stance that implies it's all our fault in the first place. Our people did NOT want the damn war. Our leaders (Blair & Co, did). 

Google 'million march against Iraq war' if you need more information?      See you.

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Jeremy Corbyn was on that march you mention and actually spoke against it on the platform,and i,m sure he blames Blair & Bush for it