Shooting in Paris

[hyperrush]

This is horrible, getting the newscast 36 dead innocents 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-liv...

[astrologica]

Thank you for that Creeky. It is good to see that. As well as denouncements of that sort, which should be printed large in National newspapers for everyone to read, what would really help protect the public of this country would be the Imams of British mosques queuing up outside police stations to go in and name those who they believe to be at risk of radicalisation. And not only the Imams...anyone who knows of anyone who is at risk. It should be their duty, if they live in this country. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@astrologica wrote:

This from the Prime Minister yesterday:

" We have to stop this seed of hatred even being planted in people's minds, let alone allowing it to grow". He went on "It is not good enough to say that Islam is a religion of peace and then deny any connection between the religion of Islam and the extremists.

These extremists are self-identifying as Muslims. From Tunisia to the streets of Paris, these murderers all spout the same twisted narrative that claims to be based on a particular faith". He added, " We can't stand neutral in this battle of ideas".

He also said that more needed to be done to tackle elements in Muslim communities who were allowing extremism to spread by tolerating or ignoring it.

He said " Unwittingly or not, those who promote extremist views-even if non-violent themselves- provide succour to those who want to commit, or get others to commit, violence".

He called for a greater effort to promote integration of Muslims in the wider community, by moving away from segregation in our schools and communities and inspecting and shutting down educational institutions that are teaching intolerance.

And that is from our Prime Minister, who obviously doesn't think that ordinary Muslims are doing enough to disassociate themselves from extremism.

There.....I have been paying attention.

---

I'm unable to find the quote where David Cameron said he 'doesn't think that ordinary Muslims are doing enough to disassociate themselves from extremism'.

However from the same Prime Minister today at Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons:-

I am happy to join the right hon. Gentleman in that, and some of the strongest and best statements following the Paris attacks have been made by a series of British Muslims who have come together to say that these attacks are in no way carried out in their name. I do think—we talked about this yesterday—that this raises an important issue, because it cannot be said often enough that these butchers of ISIL are no reflection of the true religion of Islam, which is a religion of peace. At the same time, we must recognise that whether these terrorists are in Tunisia, Egypt, Paris or London, they spout the same bile that they claim comes from the religion of Islam. That is why we must take apart what they say and prove that that is not the case. It is not good enough to say that there is no connection between these terrorists and Islam; they are making a connection, and we need to prove that it is not right. As we do so, the support of Muslim communities and scholars is vital, and I commend them for their work.

[geo1pat1]

“None so blind as those that will not see” Applies both ways Creeky !!! Care to read my post again???.........................I specifically mentioned “Leading Muslim Clerics” Which, try as I might, I cannot find mentioned in your article in post 99.

[jd.linklater]

Muslims around the world are readily tweeting their disgust  at these outrages but as Geo and others have said, it's the senior clerics that need to be voicing their condemnation of the attacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34858514

[artful_dodgings]

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@geo1pat1 wrote:
“None so blind as those that will not see” Applies both ways Creeky !!! Care to read my post again???.........................I specifically mentioned “Leading Muslim Clerics” Which, try as I might, I cannot find mentioned in your article in post 99.

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Quite right, Geo. Bit of an airy-fairy C&P by Creeky back there. No author mentioned, and the quote is not attributed to anyone in particular.. I could have written that.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@artful_dodgings wrote:

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@geo1pat1 wrote:
“None so blind as those that will not see” Applies both ways Creeky !!! Care to read my post again???.........................I specifically mentioned “Leading Muslim Clerics” Which, try as I might, I cannot find mentioned in your article in post 99.

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Quite right, Geo. Bit of an airy-fairy C&P by Creeky back there. No author mentioned, and the quote is not attributed to anyone in particular.. I could have written that.

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So hard to find

From that most left wing of daily rags

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323372/Paris-terror-attacks-British-Muslim-groups-advert-un...

The list of those condemning the attacks in this article are specific

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/paris-attacks-muslims-around-world-react-islamic-state-massacre-1528759

[start-the-fire]

After the recent attacks i wonder how many Muslims have sympathy for the recent victims in the latest outrage.

According to a poll 27% were sympathetic to the last muderous attack, and that figure is probably underestimated, as who would even admit to thoughs thoughts even if they did. Thats British Muslims, how many would that be around the world ?

Of course that does not make them psycotic killers, but tells more about there mindset, and maybe why some are readily happy to take up arms and kill innocent people. Like it or not many hate westerners.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11434695/Over-a-quarter-of-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-fo...

On the other hand there are some top notch Muslims, and embrace both cultures, like some on the news the other night going to the England match, those that participate in the community, and support other peoples values.

[fallen-archie]

I think reactions are heavily influenced by individual circumstances, Terror frightens many, they fear expressing their feelings openly and becoming targets of the thugs. It's a bit like those in western society who were paid protection money in order that they or their business were not harmed. If I am honest  I experienced less emotion when the lebanon was bombed than I did over attacks in Paris, I was also shocked by the downing of the Russian airbus and the bombings in Ankara, yet the latter saw many locals refusing to observe a minute silence in respect of the french atrocities during an international football game. Deep conviction to the Muslim faith and an unswerving loyalty to the preaching of imams  sometimes prevents rational thinking or expressions of grief toward non muslims. So many of my observations show a community wedged in the past and unable or unwilling to adopt change. If they wish to remain that way then perhaps they she follow the example of others by getting on with their lives and not interfering with the lives of others.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@start-the-fire wrote:

After the recent attacks i wonder how many Muslims have sympathy for the recent victims in the latest outrage.

According to a poll 27% were sympathetic to the last muderous attack, and that figure is probably underestimated, as who would even admit to thoughs thoughts even if they did. Thats British Muslims, how many would that be around the world ?

Of course that does not make them psycotic killers, but tells more about there mindset, and maybe why some are readily happy to take up arms and kill innocent people. Like it or not many hate westerners.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11434695/Over-a-quarter-of-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-fo...

On the other hand there are some top notch Muslims, and embrace both cultures, like some on the news the other night going to the England match, those that participate in the community, and support other peoples values.

---

I often wonder why it is necessary to pervert the results of a poll, especially when the truth is just as shocking.

The poll actually asked whether the respondents had sympathy for the motives behind those who attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris - 27% replied they did.

That is not the same as saying they were sympathetic about the actual attack yet is just as shocking in its own way.

Why is the more shocking response to the question as to whether they agreed that organisations that displayed images of Mohammad deserved to be attacked - to which 11% agreed - far too high a figure in my opinion but one that has not got the same headline appeal as 27%.

Just as shocking is the response that 46% of British Muslims feel that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims and the same number feel that prejudice against Islam makes it very difficult to be a Muslim in this country and 35% feel that British people of other faiths don't trust them.

More encouraging is that 93% believe that British Muslims should always obey British laws and that 95% feel loyal to Britain.

It is those last two figures which demonstrate that as a group they shouldn't be treated differently to other citizens, either in the way they are expected to respond to attacks such as that seen in Paris nor being treated as though they have a greater responsibility than the rest of us for the barbaric acts recently carried out.

[fallen-archie]

If I may Creeky, I wonder if you have noticed an increase in the number of Muslims of all ages and sex wearing discreet clothing. I am not in a position to offer concrete evidence but several people around here have mentioned it and it does appear to be true. I cannot see how this open demonstration of ones religion or religious belief in any way supports a quest or desire for greater integration.

[tommy.irene]

.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

If I may Creeky, I wonder if you have noticed an increase in the number of Muslims of all ages and sex wearing discreet clothing. I am not in a position to offer concrete evidence but several people around here have mentioned it and it does appear to be true. I cannot see how this open demonstration of ones religion or religious belief in any way supports a quest or desire for greater integration.

---

My nearest large town is Crawley with 28% of the population belonging to non-white British ethnic groups, the largest proportion of those being Asian.  There has for a number of years been relatively large numbers of women wearing what can be described as 'discreet clothing' - ranging from simple headscarves to the full hijab.  I can't say I've particularly noticed an increase in the numbers recently but there again they have been part of the local 'scenery' for so long I wouldn't necessarily notice if they have.

All that aside I don't see the problem if the numbers have increased - are you suggesting that individuals should be ashamed of their religion and not wear clothing that identifies their religious beliefs!  Jews, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Sikhs and numerous other groups wear clothing that identifies their beliefs - do you think that hinders their desire to be British and part of the greater society?

Integration doesn't require everybody to be the same.

[fallen-archie]

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All that aside I don't see the problem if the numbers have increased - are you suggesting that individuals should be ashamed of their religion and not wear clothing that identifies their religious beliefs!  Jews, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Sikhs and numerous other groups wear clothing that identifies their beliefs - do you think that hinders their desire to be British and part of the greater society?

Integration doesn't require everybody to be the same.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

No absolutely not! I was not suggesting that people should be affraid to celebrate or simply proudly demonstrate their religion or belief. If anyone interpreted my question that way then I am at fault for not reflecting my thoughts more appropriately. I was however expressing what has become a bone of contention among many who share their space and community. Sending 14 year old girls back to Pakistan for an arranged marriage, against the will of the child, against the law here yet it continues and we watch it happen. It is as if some wish to live in a time warp, to take the benefits we enjoy as a developed nation but to somehow exist independently and outside the laws and traditions of their abode. There has to be a balance, Just as the recently released British pensioner held in a saudi jail having been caught in posession of home made alcohol,he broke the law of the land and was punished. Those who come here should be subject to our laws, respect our traditions, understand our fears and not seek to establish a parallel form of governance or judicial system based on feudal and religious doctrine. I welcome cosmopolitan societies but I also wish to preserve some national identity and tradition where it was founded.

[cee-dee]

I think that if you emigrate to any country you should adopt the language and all of the Laws and customs of that country.

Never forget your origins, but in your new country your old language, customs and Laws should be left behind.

[start-the-fire]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

---

@start-the-fire wrote:

After the recent attacks i wonder how many Muslims have sympathy for the recent victims in the latest outrage.

According to a poll 27% were sympathetic to the last muderous attack, and that figure is probably underestimated, as who would even admit to thoughs thoughts even if they did. Thats British Muslims, how many would that be around the world ?

Of course that does not make them psycotic killers, but tells more about there mindset, and maybe why some are readily happy to take up arms and kill innocent people. Like it or not many hate westerners.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11434695/Over-a-quarter-of-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-fo...

On the other hand there are some top notch Muslims, and embrace both cultures, like some on the news the other night going to the England match, those that participate in the community, and support other peoples values.

---

I often wonder why it is necessary to pervert the results of a poll, especially when the truth is just as shocking.

The poll actually asked whether the respondents had sympathy for the motives behind those who attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris - 27% replied they did.

That is not the same as saying they were sympathetic about the actual attack yet is just as shocking in its own way.

Why is the more shocking response to the question as to whether they agreed that organisations that displayed images of Mohammad deserved to be attacked - to which 11% agreed - far too high a figure in my opinion but one that has not got the same headline appeal as 27%.

Just as shocking is the response that 46% of British Muslims feel that Britain is becoming less tolerant of Muslims and the same number feel that prejudice against Islam makes it very difficult to be a Muslim in this country and 35% feel that British people of other faiths don't trust them.

More encouraging is that 93% believe that British Muslims should always obey British laws and that 95% feel loyal to Britain.

It is those last two figures which demonstrate that as a group they shouldn't be treated differently to other citizens, either in the way they are expected to respond to attacks such as that seen in Paris nor being treated as though they have a greater responsibility than the rest of us for the barbaric acts recently carried out.

---

sopose it could be worse, the muslim population of the uk is near 3million so that makes about 210,000 dont believe they should obey british law, and 150,000 dont feel loyal to britain. quite small or is it-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

But i do agree with you that they shouldn't be treated differently to other citizens.

But at the same time i should not feel intimitated in areas where there is a high concentration of muslims in my own country, and greater thought has to go into the intergration of immigrants.

[evoman3957]

Perhaps people whose Countries are such "Dumps" that they run to somebody else's for sanctuary, or a better life, should show a little more respect and gratitude to that Country for taking them in. People who bite the Hand that feeds them, can starve as far as I'm concerned.

[fallen-archie]

Thanks for that STF, Brigitte is one formidable woman,

[mikes*corvettes]

You posted this on the horse thread the other day.

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

I wish I was in a position to offer some practical help but I'm physically, (and financially), unable to do so at the moment - we are currently 'looking after' four horses.

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If we use your quote as an analogy, we as a nation can't physically or financially take in anymore refugees.

But leaving this aside for a moment let me ask you this question.

As you are at full capacity at the moment with four horses if you were forced to take in one more horse which didn't mix with the other four and could cause them possible harm.....

What would you do in this situation, get rid of the four who lived in some sort of harmony or get rid of the one causing the unrest ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All that aside I don't see the problem if the numbers have increased - are you suggesting that individuals should be ashamed of their religion and not wear clothing that identifies their religious beliefs!  Jews, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Sikhs and numerous other groups wear clothing that identifies their beliefs - do you think that hinders their desire to be British and part of the greater society?

Integration doesn't require everybody to be the same.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

No absolutely not! I was not suggesting that people should be affraid to celebrate or simply proudly demonstrate their religion or belief. If anyone interpreted my question that way then I am at fault for not reflecting my thoughts more appropriately. I was however expressing what has become a bone of contention among many who share their space and community. Sending 14 year old girls back to Pakistan for an arranged marriage, against the will of the child, against the law here yet it continues and we watch it happen. It is as if some wish to live in a time warp, to take the benefits we enjoy as a developed nation but to somehow exist independently and outside the laws and traditions of their abode. There has to be a balance, Just as the recently released British pensioner held in a saudi jail having been caught in posession of home made alcohol,he broke the law of the land and was punished. Those who come here should be subject to our laws, respect our traditions, understand our fears and not seek to establish a parallel form of governance or judicial system based on feudal and religious doctrine. I welcome cosmopolitan societies but I also wish to preserve some national identity and tradition where it was founded.

---

Which brings us nicely round in a circle to the poll mentioned above where 93% of British Muslims say that they should always obey British laws.  That means that 7% don't - it is this group, the potential offenders, that attention should be paid to, along with the small percentage of the rest of the population who believe they are above the law.

30% of the adult male population have a criminal record, (excluding motoring offences), so I guess 7% of a group thinking that it's okay to disobey British law is not that outstanding but that doesn't meant that it shouldn't be addressed.

On the point of clothing you did state in your earlier post, "I cannot see how this open demonstration of ones religion or religious belief in any way supports a quest or desire for greater integration".  I'm not sure how that is compatible with, "I was not suggesting that people should be affraid to celebrate or simply proudly demonstrate their religion or belief".  I want to preserve our traditions as well, one of which we can be proudest of is our tolerance of those that are different - vive la difference

[astrologica]

You are quite right Creeky...integration doesn't require everyone to be the same. But it does require that everyone has the desire to be integrated. This country has fallen over backwards to include and integrate people of other faiths and races, but the fact is that you cannot force people to integrate if they don't want to.