Cash on collection - what if buyer pays via eBay (and/or requests courier) before collecting?

[irt303]

Hi, I'm preparing to list a couple of vinyl record job lots for collection only.

I haven't done a 'collection in person' listing before, and feel rather nervous about how things could go (assuming a sale, of course). It seems a bit 'Wild West', with all manner of potential pitfalls!

My strong preference, after having read various posts on the subject, is for the buyer to pay cash upon collection. I have expressed this preference in the listing, but I know that sellers cannot insist on this, which is why eBay includes other payment methods in the listing. I've also made it clear that I will neither send the records via courier, nor accept the buyer arranging for a courier to collect.

Although the listings aren't even live yet, and I'm not in an awkward situation (as yet!), I do like to be forearmed with some information. So, what options would I have if a buyer ignores (or doesn't even read) my payment preference, and makes payment through eBay prior to collection? Message the buyer, and politely ask if they'd consider accepting a refund, then paying cash when they collect? Presumably, this would involve having to relist, too. I also believe that eBay would not allow me to cancel the sale without dishing out a defect or two. And what if the buyer refuses my request? Would I just have to accept the eBay payment, and cross my fingers and toes that the buyer won't open a claim once home with their purchase?

And what would happen if the buyer requested that I send via courier, or asked if they could arrange collection via courier? Would these be acceptable reasons (i.e. without me incurring defects) for me to cancel the sale?

If anyone has any tips, advice or answers, especially from recent experience, I'd be very grateful - I'm all ears!

As usual, I'm trying to anticipate problems that may not even arise, but if things were to go wobbly, I'd like to have at least a general idea of what I could do, rather than heading to these pages in an absolute panic!

Many thanks!

[tressygirl]

May I just add,  eBay charge their seller fees the second the item sells,   and not when the buyer pay,  so really they do not care if the buyer pays cash,  PayPal, card payment, Google pay etc.  as their seller fees have been charged and paid when the item sells.

@irt303 

[irt303]

Hi there, a few questions I posted yesterday went unanswered, I'd be grateful if someone could clarify.

1 - If the buyer pays via eBay, and will not accept a seller's request to refund, buy again (but not pay) after the seller has relisted, and pay (cash) upon collection, then the seller must either

a) continue with the sale, arrange collection with the buyer (could be an awkward atmosphere!) and hope that the buyer doesn't subsequently open a claim - or

b) cancel the sale and get a defect.

Have I understood correctly?

2 - As for the collection itself, would I not have the right to cancel the sale (without a defect) if the buyer asked me to send via a courier (which is not 'collection in person')? That would be a clear breach of the seller's (permitted by eBay) conditions.

3 - Similarly, could I not cancel the sale (without a defect) if they insisted on arranging a courier collection, rather than collecting themselves? I guess that's a greyer area, given that a courier collection is still technically 'collection in person'.

4 - If the buyer doesn't pay through eBay, and sends a courier to pick up, do they give the courier the cash to pay the seller? How does all that work? And, in the event of trouble, how could the seller prove to eBay that a name and signature on a print-out of the order is genuinely that of the courier, and not just random friend or family member I've asked to make up a name or signature?

5 (New question) - Depending on the answer to question 3, should I delete the text in my description that states I will not accept collection from a courier?

I may as well just paste the full text here. Grateful to hear anyone's thoughts and recommendations.

"VERY IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ!

This auction job lot is offered FOR COLLECTION IN PERSON (BUYER) ONLY - EX31 POSTCODE. I will not send it via a courier, nor will I accept collection from a courier. Cash on collection is greatly preferred - this gives you the opportunity to inspect the records before committing to pay. PLEASE DO NOT BID IF THESE CONDITIONS ARE UNACCEPTABLE TO YOU. Although I have play-tested the vinyl, this job lot is offered 'Sold as seen'. Thank you."

Here's a thought for starters: should I replace "these conditions are" with "this is"?

I'm currently drafting a third vinyl job lot. I've tempered my OCD slightly by not listing the catalogue number of each release (as I did with the other two). To do so would take ages (going back and forth between eBay and Discogs), and I don't have the luxury of time. Having said that, this third job lot (disco/funk/soul) has a lot more collector's items than my techno and classical music ones, so perhaps I should have given it more priority in terms of providing the catalogue numbers. I'm also very much aware that it probably won't be worth the effort involved, and that I'll probably not get much for the records, if I get any bids at all! Then it'll be off to the charity shop with them.

[dancewithadingo]

Good Afternoon Irt

Blimey,more questions.  A couple of observations, I wouldn't think that your classical records will invoke much interest.  Soul yes, techno I am not sure about.

The bit about collecting in the description is fine but set a deadline for picking them up.  As I have said previously test list 4/6 records and see how it goes.

You are overthinking the whole situation and worrying unduly. You are presenting yourself with more reasons not to sell than to actually list them.

If you are so concerned then for heavens sake contact a local reputable bricks and mortar auction house and if they feel that they are of interest and value then let them sell them and rid yourself of all of this paranoia and stress. Yes you will pay more in fees but in your case it may be worth it to be able to sleep soundly at night and put an end to all of the worry.

Forget all of the what if's and one way or another  just do it. 

[irt303]

@dancewithadingo- Hi there, and thanks.

Yes, you're right, I'm procrastinating and overthinking. We discussed this on another thread, and I agreed with you then. Was it you who referred to a song by KISS?

To be fair, all but one of those "more questions" were ones I'd previously asked, but gone unanswered (they still are, but I'll just have to deal with that!).

I will set a deadline for collection, as you suggest - thank you. I appreciate the idea of testing things with a handful of records, but I'm going to "just do it", as you say, and list the whole lot. To be honest, I can't imagine many people being prepared to collect a handful of records unless they're very local to me or the records are ultra-desirable (in which case, I'd list them individually and offer postage - I already have lots of records earmarked for individual sale).

Even when these records are gone from my life one way or another, I'll still have masses of stuff that I've collected over the last thirty years or so, and that I wish to sell (if possible). Unfortunately, the worry won't be over! I can't remember what a sound night's sleep feels like!

Thanks again for managing to be both direct but also encouraging. The three job lots will be listed by the end of tomorrow, and I'll just take things from there.

[m25jet]

To be honest I can't say that I know the answers to all of your questions, although I'll do my best to provide a clear answer to as many questions as possible.

1.  Unfortunately I'll have to pass on this one.  Perhaps somebody else will be able to clarify the answer to your first question.

2.  If you set the listing up as a Collection In Person Only listing and the buyer tried to persuade you to send the item via a courier then you would be within your rights to cancel the sale, citing the reason "The buyer has requested something not offered in the listing" (ie:  collection of the item via a courier) as the reason why.  eBay would not penalise you for cancelling the sale if the buyer was trying to manipulate you into agreeing to something that you did not offer as an option in the listing.

3.  Same answer applies here as given to question 2.

4.  If the buyer doesn't collect the item and sends somebody else to collect the item without your consent then although they could in theory just give the courier the cash to hand over to you upon collection, this has more chance of backfiring on the buyer than it does on you.  For example, if the buyer wanted to open an Item Not As Described case, eBay would be more likely to decide the case in your favour, as they would more than likely look at the case along the lines of "Well, if you feel that the item isn't as described why did you agree to pay the seller for it when you collected it?"  When it subsequently comes to light that they sent somebody else to collect the item for them, rather than collecting it themselves, eBay would more than likely treat them as if they have voided their buyer protection by doing so, in which case you should end up winning the case and also avoid picking up a defect in relation to the transaction.  If a case was decided in your favour you would also stand a strong chance of getting eBay to remove any negative feedback left by the buyer in the meantime, as well as the associated defect, so long as you got onto eBay Customer Services as soon as possible and stated that the negative feedback should not be allowed to remain given that you won the case.  Under these circumstances eBay would more than likely side with you and remove the negative feedback.

5.  With regards to question 5, I would advise you to include something in the listing that clearly states that you will not accept collection from a courier.  Should the buyer try to ignore this condition and send a courier regardless you could use this in your defence when you explain to eBay that you stated quite clearly in your listing that you would not accept buyers arranging couriers.  Although I have long since given up selling on eBay, what I always used to do when I was actively selling items on eBay when I wanted to draw a potential buyer's attention to a specific condition of the listing was to type the text in a larger font and in bold type, then I would change the colour of the text to blood red so that it stuck out like a sore thumb from the remainder of the text.  That way the buyer couldn't say "I didn't see that bit of the item description..."

Although this isn't a reply to a question you asked, it's just an observation about something you said in an earlier post regarding not having enough time to read the reply and revise the wording if necessary.  The best option to get around this problem is to read through the post in its entirety, proofreading it for errors before you even hit "Reply."  That way you can correct any typographical errors, add text, delete text, etc, until you're happy with it and you won't have a stopwatch running down against you.  Once you're happy that the post reads exactly as you want it to read just click on "Reply."

[irt303]

Yet another question - sorry!

I meant to ask in my previous post: what can a seller do if the buyer doesn't collect within the stipulated time-frame? Would eBay allow the seller to cancel the sale without a penalty?

Some people reading this thread may be rolling their eyes by this point, and, yes, perhaps such questions are best left until a situation arises where they have to be asked, but personally, I'd like to have an idea beforehand. I don't think that's necessarily negative thinking, more just being prepared.

[dancewithadingo]

Hi Again Irt

Dingo here.  Thank you for those kind words. I may well have responded to a previous query you had. I seem to recall the War and Peace length of the questions.  I am not so sure about Kiss,unless I meant Keep It Simple etc.

Anyway good luck with your listings and sales.  Keep the listing brief and to the point.  If you do manage to make a sale inorder to help the purchaser identify your house write say 'Records' on a large piece of paper and put it in your front window,when he is due.  Tell him what you have done.  It always works for me.

[tressygirl]

---

@irt303 wrote:

Yet another question - sorry!

I meant to ask in my previous post: what can a seller do if the buyer doesn't collect within the stipulated time-frame? Would eBay allow the seller to cancel the sale without a penalty?

Some people reading this thread may be rolling their eyes by this point, and, yes, perhaps such questions are best left until a situation arises where they have to be asked, but personally, I'd like to have an idea beforehand. I don't think that's necessarily negative thinking, more just being prepared.

---

I think it's very wise to ask questions before the event, absolutely best to be prepared.

It's a grey area,  but usually agreed that 7 days is a good timeframe to keep an item.  Should the timleine approach with no communication from the buyer,   then a message sent to the buyer politely giving them a deadline for example,  you require confirmation of a collection date within ** days,  otherwise you deem the item to be unwanted,  and will be cancelling the order.

If this comes to be,  then Cancel the Order citing Buyer Requests to Cancel.  This refunds you your seller fees,  refunds the buyer ( if they have paid beforehand),  and your seller performance is not affected.

@irt303 

[irt303]

@m25jet- Many thanks for a very informative and detailed reply.

Regarding your replies:

1 - Yes, hopefully!

2 - I was thinking along those lines, but thanks for confirming.

3 - Are you sure the answer is as clear-cut as the answer to 2? I think it's a grey area given that a courier collection would still be 'collection in person'.

tressygirl said in her first reply: "If a buyer sends a courier ( third party) they are not covered by eBay's 30 day MBg policy, but could still affect a charge back if pament was made by card. In these cases it's advisable to print off a copy of the order details, date and have the couirer name and sign it , that it's being collected." That strongly suggests that a buyer can send a courier (against the seller's wishes, but permitted by eBay, so nothing the seller can do to prevent it).

Secondly, I've seen posts from sellers who have specified 'no courier collection', but the buyers have arranged it regardless - so it does happen.

Finally, even your answer to question 4 reads as though the seller can do nothing (other than stating an unenforceable preference) about courier collection ("If the buyer doesn't collect the item and sends somebody else to collect the item without your consent...").

Based on the above, stating "no courier collection" is just expressing a preference that the buyer is not required by eBay to adhere to (just like "cash on collection preferred"). If eBay doesn't require the buyer to adhere to that preference, then surely they would penalise a seller for cancelling the sale.

Question 2, is - as you said - a case of the buyer attempting to get the seller to do something not offered in the listing. But this is different, it's a case of a seller's preference (which is not the same as a condition that eBay would back you up on).

Also, your answer to this question is based on a scenario where the buyer sends a courier to collect (against the seller's wishes) but does give the courier cash to pay the seller (the cash aspect being in line with the seller's wishes). My (nightmare) scenario is one where the buyer goes against both preferences, i.e. they pay by card/PayPal before collection and send a courier to collect. In that case, as tressygirl mentioned, the buyer could still do a chargeback.

What it comes down to is this. Would eBay allow the seller to cancel a sale (without applying a defect) if the buyer ignored what - in eBay's eyes - is an only unenforceable preference (rather than an enforceable requirement like 'Collection only')? It's that difference between what - to eBay - is an unenforceable preference and what - to eBay - is an enforceable requirement that is the critical issue. I could clearly state in my listing that I expect the buyer to arrive in scuba dive gear (with flippers!), carrying a bundle of pink balloons, and singing a mixture of Andy Williams and death metal songs. A somewhat daft and extreme example, but illustrating the point that this is only a preference on my part, not something eBay would expect the buyer to do as their part in the transaction (but something eBay would penalise me for if I were to cancel on the basis that they the buyer didn't do as I requested).

Having laboured this point to death, I'd be happy to be proven wrong (believe me, I would!). But as I see it right now, 'no courier collection' is only a preference, not an eBay-sanctioned condition, and eBay wouldn't have your back if the buyer ignored it.

4 - Again, this is all well and good if the buyer / third party brought along cash to pay the seller upon collection. But if the buyer had paid by card / PayPal beforehand (which the seller cannot prevent, as eBay permit this), then the eBay rationale you mentioned ("Well, if you feel that the item isn't as described why did you agree to pay the seller for it when you collected it?") would not apply here.

And, again, how can a buyer prove to eBay that a name and signature on an order printout is that of the person coming to collect, as opposed to some other random person? I mean, if the situation required it, I would get the person collecting to put their name and signature on a copy of the order, because this has been clearly recommended by tressygirl and other sellers far more experienced than I am. But how one could prove that it's genuine is still a mystery to me, and for that reason alone I can't help but wonder what value the recommendation has, unless eBay would actually contact the person in question to ask "Is this your name and signature?" - vaguely plausible if it was the actual buyer who had collected (since eBay would be able to contact them directly), but highly implausible if a third party (friend, family member, courier - possibly no longer working for the company) had come to collect.

5 - As with 3, I'm not so sure. You refer to 'no courier collection' as a "condition", but it looks like it isn't something the seller can insist on (with eBay's backing), just a preference that the buyer can ignore with impunity. It might be a 'condition' in the seller's eyes, but it isn't in eBay's eyes, and that's what matters when it comes to dealing with a case. Again, more than happy to be proved wrong on this!

As you can see from the text I pasted from my description, I have stated 'no courier collection' - I was asking if that was a legitimate thing to include, because I don't want to be considered by buyers or eBay to be imposing conditions that I am not permitted to make (like that "Caveat emptor" business in another thread). You can also see that I have typed the key bits in bold, but I agree, there's no harm in making it more prominent with a larger font and a stand-out colour.

On the unrelated topic of time-outs when editing, I do proofread my posts before submitting, but sometimes spot minor typos that slipped through the net. It doesn't take long to edit them, it's more when I feel that something needs to be reworded / reorganized / added to that I end up against the eBay clock! Now that I know about these time-outs (which I think must be a recent thing, as I've previously spent ages editing a post - longer than the example in question - but not had the error message), I'll just do the more time-consuming editing in Word.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply and offer some answers (even if I'm not entirely convinced by a couple of them).

[tressygirl]

@irt303  wrote:       But how one could prove that it's genuine is still a mystery to me, and for that reason alone I can't help but wonder what value the recommendation has, unless eBay would actually contact the person in question to ask "Is this your name and signature?" - vaguely plausible if it was the actual buyer who had collected (since eBay would be able to contact them directly), but highly implausible if a third party (friend, family member, courier - possibly no longer working for the company) had come to collect.

You could ask for something the courier or the friend,  whoever is coming to collect,  is carrying, showing name and signature,  say a drivers license or credit card, check the signature on those, to see if they match.

[irt303]

@dancewithadingo- Credit given where it's due, I say. Yeah, War And Peace, that would be me, then! Probably more War than Peace, though! Yes, you just mentioned something like "the famous words of KISS..." without specifying what those words were - but it was obvious from the context that those words would be something to the effect of 'Keep It Simple'!

I remember telling you in my reply that my listing descriptions are nowhere near as verbose as my posts on here. In fact, if you compared the two, I'd like to think that you might be quite surprised (maybe even impressed) at how concise I can be! I know that, if I rattled on as much in my listings as I do on here, it would be a barrier to sales, not that I get many anyway. I don't have another account (although I am thinking about it now that I'm posting more often), and I have live sales plus the three job lots from tomorrow night onwards (10-day auction), so you're free to see for yourself if you have the time and inclination. I'm always open to constructive criticism, especially from those with more eBay experience under their belt than I have.

My living arrangements wouldn't permit the specific measures you suggested (I could put a note on a door, but where I live it would likely be ripped off by some passing numpty, and I wouldn't even know!), but I would, of course, give the buyer a way of clearly identifying the property.

On that subject, another question, but a simpler one this time: My understanding is that, once the buyer has made the purchase (but not necessarily paid - indeed, I wouldn't want them to pay until they collected), both buyer and seller are allowed by eBay to swap contact information, specifically phone numbers and the buyer's exact address. Both parties are then allowed to contact one another outside of eBay's messaging system in order to meet and complete the sale (imagine having to do this via eBay Messages!). Because the buyer has made the purchase within eBay, eBay take their cut at the point of purchase, and it is not considered to be an 'off-eBay' transaction. Am I correct in all this?

[dancewithadingo]

Hi again Irt.

Yes.

[irt303]

@tressygirl- Thanks again, all good, solid information!

I'm probably exhausting the goodwill on this thread with my constant 'buts' and 'what ifs', but what if the buyer subsequently complained to eBay that they hadn't requested to cancel (which eBay could confirm from the messages). I'm sure (?) that eBay would not be so unreasonable as to expect the seller to wait indefinitely, but I can find anything on specific timeframes (e.g. "If the buyer has not collected within 'x' days of purchasing, the seller may cancel the transaction with the reason 'Buyer requests to cancel' without incurring a defect"). Something like that would be very helpful.

I guess this would be a case where a human at eBay would need to look at the individual case, including messages exchanged between buyer and seller, and a 'final judgement' would be reached that way.

I'm discovering more grey areas on eBay as I go along! In the absence of any hard information, I'll go along with 7 days as a reasonable time-frame, possibly a bit longer if the buyer could convince me of extenuating circumstances.

Thanks again for your reply.

[tressygirl]

Ask as many questions as you like, it's no problem,  and better be safe than sorry, fore warned is fore armed, well you know what I mean!

I think sending that all important ' last'  but polite message,  giving a deadline to confirm a collection date and time, and if not,  then you deem to item to be not wanted and will be cancelling the order,  is clear that Buyer here is requesting cancellation.

  Unfortunately,  there are only a few options to cancel not everyone will describe the situation fully,  but select that,  and seller fees are refunded,  and seller performance is not affected.

[irt303]

@tressygirl- "You could ask for something the courier or the friend, whoever is coming to collect, is carrying, showing name and signature, say a drivers license or credit card, check the signature on those, to see if they match."

Hello (yet again!). I could, but surely all that would achieve would be to satisfy myself that the person collecting had provided their own name and signature. My question was how could I prove to eBay (if it came to it) that the name and signature on an order printout was that of the person who had turned up to collect? What would there be to stop an unscrupulous seller from getting someone else to put down a name and signature (or just doing it themselves), then telling eBay "Yep, they've picked it up, here's a copy of the order with the name and signature of the person who collected it"?

The above scenario is based on the buyer paying prior to collection. If they (or a third party) were paying upon collection, I suppose I could politely but firmly insist that they write their name and sign the printout, otherwise I would not accept the payment.

I just don't see how a name and signature on an order printout constitute proof to eBay that the item was collected by that person without some extensive investigation on eBay's part. Unless the buyer themselves collected the item, the seller could just say to eBay, "The buyer sent a friend/relative/courier [eBay could establish the truth of that part from the messages], and this is the name and signature that they wrote on the printout". It could even be a fictitious name - even if the buyer had specifically named the person collecting in eBay messages, the seller could claim that someone else turned up in the end.

The system can't be that open to abuse; I must be missing, or failing to understand, some critical element. Someone please pull me out of the rabbit-hole!

[irt303]

@dancewithadingo- Thanks!

(See, I can do it!)

[tressygirl]

I have never heard or seen this being disregarded as it's eBay's own instruction  to get the person // courier collecting to sign a print of off the order details.

Any appeal asks for photos,  show the signature that this was checked against a formal documentation.

May I ask what is the value of this item to be collected?  The size?  Is it something that could be posted with tracking and full insurance ?

[irt303]

@tressygirl- Thank you!

I'm going to do us all a favour, especially you and poor dancewithadingo, and take a break from this thread. I'll reply to/acknowledge any subsequent replies tomorrow or on Tuesday if possible. Apart from the fact that we're all probably getting rather tired of the subject, I've previously stated that I don't have the luxury of time, yet have spent a big chunk of the day on this thread, which isn't exactly consistent!

I now need to focus on finalizing the job lot listings, implementing some of the suggestions made. Not before a much-needed cuppa, though!

Thanks again to everybody who has chimed in, enjoy the rest of your Sunday!

[tressygirl]

You're very welcome @irt303  and have a great weekend,   and all the best with successful selling.

You  know where we all are,  if you need us !

[irt303]

Before I stick the kettle on, can I just ask what people think of the text attached here?

I've tried to be firm without sounding aggressive. I think that the mixture of black lower-case and bold red upper-case has two benefits compared to the whole text being all-caps, all-bold, and all-red: it makes the wording look less shouty and hectoring, and also stands out more (I'm no expert, but I'd say the mixture draws the eye more than would a whole chunk of text in the same format).

I'll note any comments, but won't post again until tomorrow/Tuesday unless I really feel I need to.

And, no, I won't be clicking that AI button!