Buyer Fraud – Sellers Beware – Ebay Won’t Help

[lexusking]

I have been the victim of a buyer fraud and Ebay say it is not covered by Seller protection

In February 2024 I sold a £4000 Computer part I decided not to use to a buyer who had joined ebay one month before – zero feedback. I discounted the part from £4500 to £4000 to close the deal, he paid, I shipped the part to him by Royal Mail tracked insured service and on the Royal Mail tracking service there is a photo of him signing for the part at his door with his details displayed on the parcel. Ebay have a copy of this photo. Just to clarify he has never said he has not received the part, he has never questioned the condition of the part or the fact that it is the correct part that he bought. The buyer then messaged me asking for a further discount or he would like to return it, I had sold it with a no return policy and explained this and also stated that I could not retrospectively discount it any more. He then contacted Ebay saying he wanted to return it, Ebay opened a case, looked at the details and closed the case in my favour as I had followed ebay’s policies and the sale was conducted correctly. In March 2024 another case was opened by Ebay, saying that an outside financial institution had requested a refund of the full £4000 and until this was resolved my selling account funds would be on hold. I sent details to ebay showing the buyer had received the product correctly and suggested this was a fraud to get the product for nothing and I presume Ebay sent that information to the financial institution. This week Ebay messaged me to say the case had been decided in the buyers favour and that I needed to pay £4000 to ‘refund’ the sale. I contacted customer services to appeal and had a long chat with a service representative who said ebay could do nothing as the claim had come from the buyers funding source through paypal and they were powerless to do anything. I pointed out the buyer still had the part and the agent suggested I contact him to ask for it back – I have done this through messages  but have received no reply. Next week ebay want £4000 from me – bare in mind they took c£500 commission on the sale. So I would be £4500 out of pocket. The agent took my comments seriously and Ebay translated the ‘chat’ to a complaint, and within a few hours ebay responded saying they have followed their policies, refunded me £14 ‘dispute’ but they could do nothing. It has been suggested I contact the financial ombudsman if I am not happy, I will but on their website it says it can take them 6 months to reply. I am also going to contact the Police fraud hotline on Monday but that takes 28 days to get a response. So I lose £4500 to a scammer?  How can this be? Has anyone else fallen foul of a situation like this?

[lexusking]

Right - so again misunderstandings - I just don't know this stuff because I have had no previous exposure to it

I have posted the results of the case found in my favour - exactly as it is - gleefully and in ignorance - not the reason

Looking at the original messages the 'reason' the case was opened was

because "Buyer didn't receive the item"

I then replied that the tracking details had been uploaded and sent the photo from Royal Mail showing the buyer signing for the part and messages of him asking for a discount, these were on ebay messages anyway, and got the result from ebay "you can't work things out with the buyer" and ebay found in my favour and closed the case.

I apologise - someone else asked in earlier posts and I have always said "you can't work things out with the buyer" was the reason the case was opened, thats the solution ebay gave in my favour not the reason. I have always dismissed this instantly and in effect ignored it becuase I had the photo proof of him signing for the part so knew it was incorrect. My fault.

[*vyolla*]

You need to get clear clarification on what kind of chargeback this is, whether your buyer has gone to their card provider and told them that they haven't received the item (though I find it unlikely that they'd do this given that they lost an eBay item not received claim because you have proof of delivery ) or that they've issued a chargeback because they are claiming that the item they've received is not as described (which is the problematic one for you, and it seems to me likely it is this sort).

If you're not sure, contact eBay and ask them what the reason is for the chargeback. 

[4_bathrooms]

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@*vyolla* wrote:

You need to get clear clarification on what kind of chargeback this is

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The OP already has it; their buyer filed a chargeback claim for "Refund not issued". Such claims are usually filed when a retailer hasn't refunded when they had an obligation to. One such example would be a remorse return where a consumer has returned the item but the retailer hasn't issued their refund.

eBay doesn't cover this reason in their payment dispute seller protections but they do mention it in their handling payment disputes guide:

 

I think the OP needed to challenge this based on their "no returns" policy. I also think eBay were in the wrong here as this isn't an INAD nor INR reason; it is mostly concerned with no refund being issued following a return.

[*vyolla*]

This scenario is such a mess, probably the messiest chargeback I've seen. I'm failing to see why the OP lost out then given that none of those given reasons really apply, I can't even see their returns policy providing a basis for a chargeback. 

I do wonder if the buyer has just accidentally got lucky and clicked the right sequence of buttons on the claim form or if they know how to game the system. 

[*vyolla*]

@lexusking  Is there a reason code showing anywhere in the chargeback info?  It will begin with a letter, something like V70 or A40, that's the kind of code you're looking for.

[lexusking]

Thanks! And it hapens to me!!!

[lexusking]

eBay C 17109677957 

Thata what's on the chargeback - is that right?

[lexusking]

Knowing whats gone on - zero feedback buyer just joined ebay 2 weeks before buying - I reckon he has just got lucky - but who knows - maybe he may know the system inside out - I certainly don't!

[lexusking]

I will have another crack tomorrow with Ebay - I will say it's very wearing but with the help of all you guys I at least now know what may have happened and certainly understand the whole thing a lot better. Will be back to Ebay with a fresh mind tomorrow. Getting all this knowledge is invaluable and could save a lot of money and a lot of future hassle. Thanks

[*vyolla*]

No, that looks like an eBay reference. The chargeback code would be a letter followed by two numbers, eBay may not pass that on to the seller, it was just a shot. We could've then worked out who the card provider is and you could've contacted them direct and told them that this was a fraudulent claim. 

[lexusking]

No worries. I'll speak to Ebay tomorrow. Thanks for all your help.

[lexusking]

Hi so updates. Ebay wont't play ball at the moment so at the stage of going through a formal complaints procedure with letter and report to Financial Ombudsman. I have had various communication from the buyer who has said I am rude because I sent him a letter saying if he does not return the product I will report him to the Police, contact Paypal and take him to court. He has said go legal on me. Basically see you in court. So I will. So actually no further forward but the process continues. I am mulling on launching legal action against Ebay for not adhering to their seller protection when I followed the delivery guidlines exactly, and have the proof. A solicitior is looking at this for me now. So looks like a long drawn out fight to get any meaningful result. I reckon I will easily win in the small claims court against the buyer but getting the product back or any actual money may be interesting. It shows the powerlessness of sellers against buyers and ebay when things go wrong. But I will fight to get a result.

[gofastergames]

Thanks for the update and please continue to update us as it will be interesting to see how this plays out, I do wish you a positive outcome I would certainly follow through with legal action over a 

£4000 part, and would be willing to spend half that to see it to its conclusion

[*vyolla*]

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@lexusking wrote:

 I have had various communication from the buyer who has said I am rude because I sent him a letter saying if he does not return the product I will report him to the Police, contact Paypal and take him to court. He has said go legal on me. Basically see you in court. So I will. 

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Why didn't you keep this simple, as advised?

You just needed to send a polite and concise letter stating that now that they've been refunded you're contacting them to make mutally agreeable arrangements to have your item returned. I see loads of chargeback scenarios on another forum and it's vital to keep things simple and appear reasonable. Mentioning the Police (they can't do anything here) and PayPal (they can't do anything here) just dilutes the whole thing. You just needed a simple letter followed by a letter before action.  You will need to show these communications in your legal claim, so they must be concise and you must appear reasonable throughout.

You can't take legal action against eBay (your solicitor should tell you this after they've read eBay's user agreement, if they don't then I'd find another one) or via the Ombudsman. 

[lexusking]

Well it was actually Ebay who suggested contacting Payal and gave me the chargeback reference!

And action fraudline do say the look at cases of credit card fraud - lying to your credit card company saying you are owed a refund for something when you have the item and there is nothing wrong with it is fraud I would say. But maybe I will be told differently. I am sure they would have no interest for £100 - but £4k? We'll see.

I am the one out of pocket so reckon I should pursue every avenue possible.

Somehow this one has gone against me with Ebay so I will try everything to get my money back.

[zoomingmouse]

What a sorry state of affairs.

For a buyer to ask for a further discount <after a £500 discount> upon receipt of the item, just because they want one sounds like a chancer to me.

I've received a solicitor's letter threatening me with legal action <not Ebay related>, which almost frightened me enough in to complying as I didn't relish a possibly long drawn out expensive legal battle & only had 14 days to decide what to do.

As I was not in the wrong in my case I retaliated with a legal letter on my behalf which made the other side back down, but the point of this post is that sometimes, just the threat of legal action can have the desired effect without the need to follow it to the end, especially if they know they're in the wrong & have lied to their credit card. 

It may be worth finding out their personal situation - if they own their home, work etc to ascertain the likelihood of them being able to pay if you win before choosing how far to go with it.

If they have something to lose then the chance to make a case go away may be higher than if they have nothing to lose.

Always good to get proper legal advice before choosing which path to take.

Good luck with it all.

[lexusking]

So the latest part of the onging saga some one may be able to help with. After writing a letter of complaint to ebay they still suggest I ask the buyer to return the part. I have and he won't. The paypal reference number they gave me to address the chargeback with paypal was worng - according to paypal, so I have asked for the correct one.

But this is the killer. Ebay say the part is NOT covered by seller protection becuase it's a high value item (£4,000). I have asked where in the terms of Ebay's seller protection does it say what value items up to what amount are covered, and am awaiting a response. Am I missing something here - does seller protection only cover items up to a certain small amount? Does anyone know? I have all this in writing BTW so documented responses. Help would be welcome as that statement floored me.

[*vyolla*]

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@lexusking wrote:

But this is the killer. Ebay say the part is NOT covered by seller protection becuase it's a high value item (£4,000). I have asked where in the terms of Ebay's seller protection does it say what value items up to what amount are covered, and am awaiting a response. Am I missing something here - does seller protection only cover items up to a certain small amount? Does anyone know? I have all this in writing BTW so documented responses. Help would be welcome as that statement floored me.

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It's not covered by eBay Seller Protection because there is no protection against a not as described chargeback.

[lexusking]

It wasn't a "not as described" chargeback - the chargeback stated "refund not received" - thats been the point he whole time. He must have told Paypal he had sent it back and they refunded him. He has never disputed the part, said he did not get it or said there was anything wrong with it. Ebay have said they are happy with the proof he got it I should still try and get it back off him... mmmnnn

Do you know about sellers protection limits? - that was the question as ebay say they don't cover a "high value item" - £4000 in this case Thanks

[*vyolla*]

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@lexusking wrote:

Do you know about sellers protection limits? - that was the question as ebay say they don't cover a "high value item" - £4000 in this case Thanks

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Never heard of it, I've no idea where that might've come from. As regards your case it wouldn't be covered if it was £4, so the £4000 figure seems to be a bit of a moot point to me. 

eBay require a signature for items sold for over £450 in the event of an item not received case, but that's also not relevant here as it's not an item not received claim.

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@lexusking wrote:

 He must have told Paypal he had sent it back and they refunded him.

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PayPal wouldn't refund on that basis.