Tech support says :messages to upgrade from a private to business account have been sent by mistake

[notstopbuying]

I had a message yesterday on my private selling account and an email, to say that I needed to upgrade from a private seller to a business account, I called eBay this morning to ask about various things with regards to upgrading to a business account and the tech support person said....No need to, the emails have all been sent out by mistake.

I asked will I receive an email to confirm it was a mistake, they said no, but they are currently working on the issue.

The tech support person did say, if I received a 2nd email to say I needed to upgrade to a business account, then it would be best to call back and confirm if I do need to upgrade, but the 1st email as been sent out to many, many private sellers and they have no need to upgrade to a business account.

[theelench]

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@4_bathrooms wrote:

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Also, I'm pretty sure the whole point of the reporting rules is to report sales against tax declared within the same (calendar) year. Your UTR might still be valid but I'm guessing you're not planning on declaring your (private) eBay sales in a self-assessment. The vast majority of private sellers are not going to have a UTR as their main household income will be from PAYE employment and/or benefits. In fact, allowing private sellers to supply a UTR would only be seen by those trading via a private account as something that legitimises their activity. 

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Surely the whole point of the reporting rules is to so HMRC can accurately assess total income and whether or not the correct amount has been declared and assessed for tax?

My UTR is definitely still valid as I retired a couple of years ago and I'm still within the period when HMRC can look back into if they suspect I under-declared my income and should have paid more tax. 

Of course I have no intention of declaring my private ebay sales in a self-assessment.  There has never been a requirement to do so.  The sales reporting by ebay is so that HMRC can see my total income and assess whether I've paid the correct amount of tax.

The vast majority of private sellers are not going to have a UTR, but the fact is I do have one that I'm quite happy to give to ebay so HMRC can link all my income (PAYE, pensions with tax deducted at source) and ebay sales for tax assessment.

I really don't care whether someone trading on a private account might think that using a UTR instead of a NINO might legitimise their position.  I don't think HMRC does either, what they want to assess is ebay sellers total income and correct tax liability.

The fact is ebay will not be getting my NINO.  If that means no more selling on ebay, then I will stop selling here.  Perhaps, as you say, ebay is only doing what HMRC has told them to do.  In which case they need to have more discussions with HMRC to change that.  It might reduce the number of private sellers they loose when they're required to ask for a TIN / UTR / NINO by allowing the choice as business sellers are able to do.

[myriad*seller]

You  can provide either a NINO or a UTR when registering as a business seller with eBay

[4_bathrooms]

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@theelench wrote:

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Surely the whole point of the reporting rules is to so HMRC can accurately assess total income and whether or not the correct amount has been declared and assessed for tax?

My UTR is definitely still valid as I retired a couple of years ago and I'm still within the period when HMRC can look back into if they suspect I under-declared my income and should have paid more tax. 

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I was trying to point out the reporting rules are not about previous income and tax paid (or not); they are concerned with income and any tax liability beginning 1st January 2024. The problem HMRC likely have is they don't issue anyone with a TIN unless they register for self-assessment; the only TIN most non-traders have is their NINO (issued by the DWP). I suspect the reason HMRC are asking for a NINO for individual sellers is because it's easier for them - if someone is registered as a private seller there is only a small chance they will have a UTR but there is a 99% chance anyone registered as a private seller or a sole trader will have a NINO.

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@theelench wrote:

I really don't care whether someone trading on a private account might think that using a UTR instead of a NINO might legitimise their position.  I don't think HMRC does either, what they want to assess is ebay sellers total income and correct tax liability.

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Correct; HMRC don't care because all they care about is whether they are receiving the correct amount of tax or not. Policing whether traders are trading legally - i.e. by registering the correct type of account with eBay - is Trading Standards' job but in most cases they're nothing more than toothless enforcers these days. However, the EU Commission does have teeth and has clearly bared them in eBay's direction hence this and similar threads.    

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@theelench wrote:

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Perhaps, as you say, ebay is only doing what HMRC has told them to do.  In which case they need to have more discussions with HMRC to change that.  

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The rules were laid down by the OECD; an international organisation the UK is a member of. This can be seen in the reporting regulations themselves - for example, the value threshold for reporting is defined in euros. So, eBay are doing what HMRC are telling them to do but HMRC are in turn doing what the OECD are telling them to do.

For what it's worth I don't believe HMRC wanted any of the burden these reporting regulations have brought them. All sales conducted via eBay UK were already reported to HMRC along with the buyer's and seller's details. That's why every few years since Connect went live HMRC has been sending nudge letters to those they suspect may owe income tax on their online selling activities.

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@theelench wrote:

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It might reduce the number of private sellers they loose when they're required to ask for a TIN / UTR / NINO by allowing the choice as business sellers are able to do.

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Nobody has a choice over which TIN eBay will request when one or both thresholds are met.

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[4_bathrooms]

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@myriad*seller wrote:

You  can provide either a NINO or a UTR when registering as a business seller with eBay

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When the seller reaches one or both reporting thresholds eBay will be asking for the TIN indicated on this page. Where business sellers are concerned this would only really affect sole traders who could provide a UTR during registration but will be asked to provide a NINO once they reach 30 sales and/or ~£1,700 in turnover. Where sole traders are concerned it's daft - a UTR should be all they would need to provide - but as pointed out it is the rules laid down by the OECD/HMRC that eBay are having to comply with. 

[cspurchasing]

I wonder what algorithm eBay have implemented to flag this first batch of accounts? Item condition (new) - number of completed sales - number of listings - turnover? From what I’ve seen thus far, it appears significant turnover isn’t a priority, with the majority of those complaining appearing to be low turnover, in comparison to the multitudinous businesses accounts trading as private, with significant turnover.

I wonder too, the actual number of businesses now trading with private accounts? I reported several businesses with substantial turnover over many years, as did so many of us, all to no avail. One doesn’t need to think too hard why that was the case.

Search for any item on eBay today, check out the seller’s account type, check out their other items, check out their sold items, do a quick calculation of turnover, wonder too how many other accounts they have…
I would suggest the number of businesses trading under private accounts now is considerable. It would be understandable for eBay to target the lower turnover accounts first.

I wonder also - if eBay were to force every single business trading under private accounts to ‘upgrade’, what the impact of that would be? How many of those businesses would abandon their eBay presence? I suggest the financial impact of successfully identifying and forcing said accounts to ‘upgrade’ could well be terminal for eBay UK.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

"I wonder too, the actual number of businesses now trading with private accounts? I reported several businesses with substantial turnover over many years, as did so many of us, all to no avail. One doesn’t need to think too hard why that was the case."

I am curious, why is it that you think that no action is taken by Ebay?

At the end of the day, it's actually in their interest to take action on these kind of account.

They are getting things cheaper than any other business seller.

ie. free listings,  free fees.

I really don't understand why Ebay ISN'T doing more about them.  They are losing income because of it.

Yes, they may well lose some sellers, but overall, they will most definately gain in income.

And pure outright legallity for their sellers.

[aj_swift]

I would suggest the number of businesses trading under private accounts now is considerable. It would be understandable for eBay to target the lower turnover accounts first.

It may be that the larger accounts are getting the message too but are more aware what they have been doing is wrong so they don't come to these boards to complain and get the inevitable (and justified) stick from members that have been trading correctly all this time.

[pg_kicks]

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@cspurchasing wrote:

I wonder also - if eBay were to force every single business trading under private accounts to ‘upgrade’, what the impact of that would be? How many of those businesses would abandon their eBay presence? I suggest the financial impact of successfully identifying and forcing said accounts to ‘upgrade’ could well be terminal for eBay UK.

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A few might disappear, but the buyers wouldnt, I'd be shocked if many didnt have profit margins where they could trade on a business account and still make money. In my category I'd guess around 25% of listings are from sellers on the wrong type of account, that market would be filled instantly, there cant be many markets where its 100% private sellers, the price might go up slightly but if its a new product people might be able to source it cheaper or buy more in bulk so get it cheaper. I cant see how its a bad thing for eBay in any way to have everyone on the correct account, it makes the site 100% safer.

[terryterry1949]

Do {ex}-private sellers know that they are sleepwalking into being railroaded into converting unnecessarily to business accounts as a consequence of which they will be charged 36 pence insertion fees for every listing converted to a business account?

[dwtrading2015]

I beleive everybody has a UTR, unique tax reference, irrespective of tax status.  They just don't know about it because either the benefit office or HR deal with the paperwork.  Once you register for self-assesment, you find out about it.

Self-assesment is very straight forward for eBay traders.  Just opt to declare income you have paid to yourself.  IR calc the tax on that and any NI due.  Assume 25%, put 25% of any income in a savings account, when the tax bill lands pay off in full and pocket a couple of quid interest.  If you have a salary and PAYE, even easier to have your tax code adjusted so you pay any tax through PAYE.

The main complication many will find is most banks will not let you use a personal account for business use.  Since managed payments were introduced, PayPal can't be used like a business account and this caught a lot of people out.  The same is about to happen again, banks suspending private accounts as similar criteria on business definitions is applied further by banks.

There's no hidding place, and not worth the hassel trying to pretend to be a privatier when you are a defacto sole trader and conducting business.

[howmuchtobid]

This seller is still allowed to trade on a private account, how exactly?

[dch2112011]

They are a business and even display their website, business name and description in the corner of most photos - and you wonder why ebay are forcing private accounts to become business accounts !

[papso22]

I sincerely hope they have caught this outrageous one!

[dch2112011]

They trade on Etsy as online antiques and invite all of ebay's members to shop on etsy - which encourages members to follow on  facebook, instagra,  and pinterest 

she (denise) openly displays phone numbers  aimed at ebay members on face book and directs pinterest to etsy  on instagram she directs people to two websites which are linked  online antiques . net and  online art .biz

If ebay allow this type of illegal trader  to direct ebay members to a competitor and reward them with free listings and discounted fees it is little wonder that members receiving emails to upgrade to business accounts are upset even if they are businesses - 

Ebay are bleeding members and encouraging off site sales - seems like ebay are allowing a free for all - anything goes !

[howmuchtobid]

In theory that sellers listings should be invisible from Monday onwards, I will believe it when I see it (or not!).

It's disgraceful.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

So have you reported them?

If enough do this, they will sit up and notice eventually.

The very fact that Ebay are taking action against sellers who are appearing to be business', says that they are doing something about it.

Just because this particular one is in your face, doesn't necessarily mean that nothing will happen with it.

They have an awful lot of accounts that need to be gone through, it's not exactly the kind of thing that you can do overnight.

[howmuchtobid]

Ebay could deal with it very easily if they had decent systems in place.

Also let's not kid ourselves here, Ebay are only acting because they have been forced to.

Also I have reported that seller a number of times, nothing changes, they were listing new items yesterday, it's beyond a joke.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

You really think so?

How exactly do you think that they are going to actually decide between a seller like that, or someone who is selling off their vast collection that they have inherited?  It will take the second seller a couple of years to do so.

How do you code for that?  There are many issues with actually identifying sellers breaking the rules.

Do please explain who they can do this easily?

Yes, they need to do more about it, but it is not as simple as just waving a magic wand!

Oh, and why exactly is it that you think that Ebay have been forced to do this?

Do you not think that it is actually in Ebay's interest to do this for themselves?  They are after all the ones who are losing out in fees etc.

And I have had plenty of gripes about this.  The system needs an overhaul, but they do appear to be actually starting to do something about it.

[howmuchtobid]

A half decent system should flag this seller up, they have 1800 listings and plenty of sales, it really isn't rocket science.

I appreciate you are an Ebay cheerleader however if you don't think a decent system should flag this up very quickly we are wasting our time discussing the matter.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Don't insult me.  I am far from an Ebay cheerleader.  You obviously are not familiar with my views, though I've posted them often enough on this particular subject.

No, my background is very heavily in IT and Systems and I simply understand what it takes to do this kind of thing.  Particularly so on systems where there are so many different parts.

Again, it's quite possible because of the way things are, to build up those kind of levels as a REAL personal seller.  Yes it's not that likely that many people will do so, but it doesn't mean that it won't happen.

Far to many are quick blame, just like yourself, but don't have a clue how things work behind the scenes.

Never mind the fact that they have obviously started to fix these kind of issues.  But that's not good enough is it?  You still want that magic wand.