Isn't it high time......?

[cee-dee]

Isn't it high time that some effort was made to debunk all the nonsense spouted by these cult-driven extremists who are causeing mayhem throughout the World?

Is it not done because of the threat/fear of "retribution" for anyone who dares to go through their idiotic view of living and shows it up for what it is = the ravings of someone unhinged?

OK, so people are free to believe what they want to believe no matter how senseless but when it results in the atrocities we're now seeing across the World and now on our home soil, it's high time some efforts were made to combat the whole idea of following that twisted way of life.

[algasmoon]

How?  Put the genie back in the bottle? Medieval mindsets took hundreds of years for the west, it will take hundreds of years for them to catch up. Its like a nervous tick, do this 3 times - face that way - say this ten times - learn this by heart - recite this - recite that or else. We are not 'innocent' so we are fair game. Dont follow the above rituals.  Innocence means different things to different people. Therein lies the rub.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Who do you want to "make these efforts"?

There are a multitude of Muslim hating groups doing so.

A multitude of Jewish hating groups doing the same.

Likewise Christian hating groups.

Tuesday saw a bomber try to kill police officers in NI, today sees a nutter succeeding. 

I'm not sure the answer to these problems is to stir up more hate towards large sections of the general population - that would surely just create more extremists?

[fallen-archie]

Are you suggesting we embrace them whilst they stick a knife in your back? The killings on the bridge yesterday were completely indiscriminate, the person concerned was probably seeking martyrdom and looking forward to all the trappings that come with such immortality. But I agree there are plenty of people out there willing to stir up hatred among us and they need to be weeded out of society and if they come from overseas returned to their homelands or place of cultural identity where they can and will fight amongst themselves.

[upthecreekyetagain]

"Are you suggesting we embrace them whilst they stick a knife in your back?"

Not at all - so long as by 'them' you mean those who want to harm others or encourage others to carry out acts like we saw yesterday.

In replying to:-

"Isn't it high time that some effort was made to debunk all the nonsense spouted by these cult-driven extremists who are causeing mayhem throughout the World?"

I was asking the question as to who should be making the "effort" and how this effort should be manifested - there are plenty of groups ready to stir up hatred of whole sections of the population based on their beliefs, colour of skin, sexuality etc. without creating new ones. 

Those sorts of groups only provide the ammunition for extremists to carry out the kinds of acts we've just seen in London and NI - we don't need any more.

[theelench]

I'm now approaching retirement age and these outrages have been going on since I was at school.  Under one pretext or another they can always find a link to "the West" and unleash another series of atrocities on innocent people. 

I also remember a series of radio programs called "The Failure of Islam" in which several Islamic historians, economists and philosophers gave their explanations of why "the West" was scape-goated and dragged into what is basically a Middle Eastern problem.  It was many years ago now and I admit I don't remember the details but all the participants agreed that the real reason behind decades of terrorism is the same.

The wealth created by the wests dependence on Middle Eastern oil is in the hands of a few royal families and dictators.  Meanwhile millions of ordinary Muslims live in poverty.  In many areas their way of life has changed little since Koranic times, and neither has their mind-set.  What also stood out to me was that many of the educated Muslims who gave their views were either from the west or Asia (where there are more Muslims than in the Middle East) and they could clearly see why Islam has failed and why it is Middle Eastern Muslims who are mostly responsible for the terrorism.

Put simply it is that the Middle Eastern rulers are playing the divide and rule game.  The internal divisions of Islam are exploited and the West held up as a Satanic threat to divert attention from themselves.  While they continue to succeed nothing will change.  Western leaders play along with this charade, those in power in the area are kow-towed to because they mostly keep the oil flowing.  While at the same time those same rulers portray the West as the ones exploiting the poor stoking their anger against us.

If terrorism is to be stopped it is the regions rulers or their mind-set that have to be changed.  They are causing the hatred of the West and benefiting from it.  While they continue to do so with impunity they are not going to change a winning formula and the daily carnage in the region and terrorism on our streets will continue.

[cee-dee]

I didn't mention "hating" groups and that's not the way to go.

What I was looking for was sensible suggestion as to how to unpick (by reasoned argument) those stupid beliefs which are only based on the say-so of someone with a vested interest in controlling by fear at a time when most of the population were not only illiterate but ignorant of how and why natural things occur.

[fallen-archie]

There is a major problem with radical Islamists and the fact that Britain has a high number of Islamic followers, most go about their business but those that become radicalised are also protected by friends and family out of loyalty to them but mainly to Islam. It is frustrating that there remain so many who despise the west and who wish to challenge it by indiscriminate actions including murder. In my opinion those who commit crimes against our way of life need to be punished and those who support them should be deported to a Muslim country where they can practice their faith unhindered. I also believe that certain symbols of radical Muslims need to be challenged including banning the wearing of the Burkha, my reason for that is that we are a liberal democracy and that is a form of unecessary shackling of women through male dominance. Such values have no place in our society. 

[mikes*corvettes]

Anyone else notice that the shot fired yesterday on the perp by the policeman was a "shoot to kill" and not the usual "shoot to wound".

I would like to think that this is now going to be the norm, but the cynic in me thinks that this was only because there were MP's lives at risk.

[algasmoon]

That policeman should have been armed its unbelievable that he was not, they wear stab vests but they need neck collars if they are not going to be armed in the position he was in, quote from the manual these nutters  follow

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks

Its not a West problem, that is a red herring, to make liberals blame ourselves,  they hate enlightened minded muslims too, those not radical enough die in thousands at their hands,  the West having been trying to help are just one part of the 'unbeliever ' group to be 'punished'

[astrologica]

It could begin by banning all religious schools in the U.K. And that should include all faiths...Islamic, Catholic, Christian, Jewish...all of them. And every child, on becoming a teenager, should listen to/take part in a debate about religious belief, in order to enable them to think for themselves. Of course, this would not prevent children being brainwashed by their parents, but it would enable children to grow up With, and make friends with, children of other faiths, without religious hatred and bigotry colouring their way of thinking. But no government would have the guts to do that.

[algasmoon]

That would never happen though because  it would also be totally unfair, the other religions do not preach killing unbelievers as a show of faith.

The main problem is finding the answer to this question:  How do you teach people the value of a living life when they do not value their own? 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Difficult to ban faith schools in a true democracy but I see no reason at all why they should be funded in any way by the Exchequer.

All schools should be inspected, public and private, to the same standard and in the case of private schools failing such inspections they should face the need for immediate improvement or closure. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Who is to decide which are, "stupid beliefs" and which are tenets of a faith? 

[goldenwonders]

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Difficult to ban faith schools in a true democracy but I see no reason at all why they should be funded in any way by the Exchequer.

All schools should be inspected, public and private, to the same standard and in the case of private schools failing such inspections they should face the need for immediate improvement or closure. 

---

Interesting though that religion effects everyone in one way or another... not necessarily for the good either. You say religious schools should not be funded by the exchequer (and I agree) but we police everything - including store opening hours (Easter Sunday - coming soon) - all based on religious beliefs. GOD FORBID I have anything to say about the existence of their Gods - They'd lock me away for religious incitement - who is inciting who here?? I'm off now to stoke up the fire to dance around at midnight!

[cee-dee]

Faith? Just what is it? An irrational belief is faith? Is the World flat or "round"? Some people believe the World is flat. Are they rational?

Now then, explaining to those believers just how we know the World is round and showing them what we know and how we know may just convince them that their belief is wrong?

Moving on to other "beliefs", explaining and showing that each part of what they believe is incorrect, picking each bit apart, point by point may help the situation?

[astrologica]

But that is the point...by banning all religious schools, irrespective of their faith, it would be fair. And the leaders of these religions should accept it for the good and for the future of our country. As you say Algas, there is the problem of some of the ridiculous claims that some religions have and believe....I.e. 40 virgins waiting in paradise. But if these kids had to engage In and listen to a debate about other faiths then it just may bring about some rational thinking. I don't know.....it's just an idea. There are precious few of them about. I have watched our MP's and other leaders spouting the same old platitudes and mantras this morning...we won't be beaten...they won't win...etc. But they did win yesterday....they killed a brave policeman.

[goldenwonders]

I agree, but lets remember Police and Soldiers know what they may have to deal with, but they killed 4 innocents - not just a policeman...

[algasmoon]

But banning religious schools means they DO win. In the 1680 somethings we had a tolerance act put in place, why should we be dragged down and back in time by these deranged people? They would absolutely love it that these acts disrupted our values that is the whole point, it would encourage more, surely that is obvious?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Some people believe there is a God.  Personally I don't but I certainly can't prove there isn't - in fact to be fair the existence of a God would explain an awful lot.

The belief in a God is a matter of faith - once the existence of a God is accepted though then it is reasonable that this God would want to communicate with us and the use of an envoy or 'prophet' seems perfectly reasonable - it is of course a matter of faith when deciding which is the true 'word of God' and which are false prophets.

It is at this point things become difficult - once you have faith that an individual is speaking the Word or that a book is the Word of God then you can't doubt that Word without doubting the existence of God.

No one can prove that Creationism is wrong and that the Universe isn't just 6,000 or whatever years old - sure you can carbon date fossils and show they are millions of years old but God may have made them like that!