Why not put the Car Tax On Fuel??

[tommy.irene]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3335816/End-paper-disc-sees-car-tax-evasion-soar-Number-case... ...End of paper disc sees car tax evasion soar: Number of cases of drivers dodging the annual payment has doubled in past year Number of drivers dodging the annual payment has soared to 560,000

[mick590_1]

Well said evoman

[mustard-tree]

Adding it to cost of fuel would not help disabled people like myself, who get free road fund licence.

[jd.linklater]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

In this day and age of computers, as well as issuing a MOT on paper to the customer; they are registered on line. So all Cars over 3 years old, get taxed at the same time as they get MOT; paid to the Garage, acting on behalf of the DVLA. Then all three ( Tax, Insurance & MOT ) are logged on line against the Cars registration.  If a Car is missing either of the three on line, against its reg, the owner is visited and Tax collected at the Door; by the person visiting them. If they can't pay, a tow truck is called and the Car is impounded for 1 month; then disposed of. If a Car is missing more than one of the three, then that's a sign ( to me ) of deliberate evasion and the owner is visited and the Car is siezed and disposed of + the owners licence is taken away for 1 year. If anybody finds a way around this, they are jailed for 1 year, lose their licence for 1 year and lose their Car permanently. You don't deal with "SCUM BAGS" by making a game of it and seeing who can play the system better......them or decent people. You either solve a problem PROPERLY by doing what's necessary and having the backbone to carry it out, or you tinker with it ,in the usual gutless manner that people do and have it drag on forever.

The first three years of Tax are added onto the price of the Car, when it's bought new, payable to the DVLA by the company selling it.

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That all sounds highly feasible but equally highly unlikely to happen. The government would have Human Rights lawyers all over them for penalising the poor and depriving people of their civil liberties. To say nothing of the expense involved in monitoring such a system with close to 30 million private vehicles on our roads. Ok fair enough a computer with a completely centralised system could highlight when an out of date issue occurs, but who is going to make all these home visits and vehicle seizures? It would need an army of staff just to deal with the current law breakers.

The disc system had worked well enough for several generations of car owners, I don't know why it was ever changed. In my view it should have been extended to include insurance and MOT requirements that can be checked at a glance. But of course even that has it's down side as we are heading more and more towards a paper free society and there are fewer and fewer Police on the streets to deal with such things.

But in the meantime I still think adding tax to fuel is the best way to go until someone comes up with a workable alternative. 

[cee-dee]

jd.linklater wrote:

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 But of course even that has it's down side as we are heading more and more towards a paper free society and there are fewer and fewer Police on the streets to deal with such things.

BUT............. there was an army of citizens looking at tax discs...............

[joe_bloggs*]

Its going to lead to an even bigger rise of car cloning,just buying a new reg plate off here same as your vehicle,so when the curtain twitchers concerned neighbour checks your car on the website it comes up as taxed,mot'd & insured,if they want to save a bit more cash they could have a quite word with the local farmer about a drop of red diesel,(best to get in quick before he fills all his 4x4's first)

So looking on the bright side the tories have created a tax avoidance scheme open to ordinary people !

About time the motorists tax burden was switched to cyclists and pedestrians,bone idle scroungers should pay their way for a change

[jd.linklater]

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@cee-dee wrote:

@jd.linklater wrote:

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 But of course even that has it's down side as we are heading more and more towards a paper free society and there are fewer and fewer Police on the streets to deal with such things.

BUT............. there was an army of citizens looking at tax discs...............

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Do you mean traffic wardens? There are less than 20 left in the whole country now, they have been replaced by local councils' civil enforcement officers whose only interest is making money for their councils for parking infringements. They aren't going to inspect vehicles for out of date tax discs. 

[cee-dee]

Ordinary people could see if a car was taxed or not. Not many would have actually reported an out of date disc but it was the "fear" of being spotted which ensured most people taxed their cars and also, it was a visible reminder to do so. Now, lots of people forget to tax the car so end up getting fined.

Now, you walk down the street and have no idea which car is taxed or not unless you know how online. Not many people will bother.

[evoman3957]

Well I have to say, compared to some of the other unenforceable & unpoliced stupid laws that have been passed; like no talking on mobiles when driving, I think it would be easier to enforce.  Instead of having to "eyeball" a perpetrator in the first place, it would be logged on computer.  Garages that are eligible to carry out MOT's are already vetted by the government and checked randomly as well may I add. So not every mechanic with a spanner, working in your friendly village lockup, would qualify to either do MOT's or collect the Tax on behalf of the DVLA.  As for needing an army to enforce it, the government have just that; to trace and bring to book those guilty of Tax evasion.  So as long as the recovery of otherwise lost revenue, pays for the workforce collecting it; it is deemed worthwhile. I also really don't believe Civil Rights lawyers would do too well, defending people blatantly guilty of evading a legal Tax; with the evidence of such activity on record for all to see.  As for being an infringement of somebody's civil liberties, that's stretching things into the realms of fantasy; you could say paying income tax also qualifies, which of course would be ridiculous.  In their wisdom, the government have decide that the current way of Taxing vehicles; is more cost effective than the old way.  That may be true, as far as running the actual system is concerned, but it certainly isn't true; when the lost revenue is taken into account.  So they're either prepared to lose revenue, so they can cut back on department running costs.........or some whizz kid Civil Servant decided the theory looked good and got it put into practice.........that's where the college of life comes in more handy, than one that hands you a little paper diploma.

[soppysofty]

I pay £140 per year for my car tax and I drive 9000 miles per year.

My car averages 60 miles on 7 litres of fuel (40mpg)  so I use around 1050 litres of fuel per year.

To recover my tax in an increase in petrol prices I would need to pay an extra 13p per litre.

That would increase my weekly fuel budget by £2.60.

I can live with that.

[jd.linklater]

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@soppysofty wrote:

I pay £140 per year for my car tax and I drive 9000 miles per year.

My car averages 60 miles on 7 litres of fuel (40mpg)  so I use around 1050 litres of fuel per year.

To recover my tax in an increase in petrol prices I would need to pay an extra 13p per litre.

That would increase my weekly fuel budget by £2.60.

I can live with that.

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The mileage I do is almost the same as yours, around 25000 in the last three years. I could live with the increase too.

[evoman3957]

Ok, so you 2 could live with that; so now lets take an example of people and vehicles that use the road far more and contribute to pollution far more. As it would be impossible to vary what different people paid for their fuel, dependant on the vehicles they drive; 13p per litre seems like a reasonable increase, based on Mr. & Mrs. average........and I think that figure would cover most Tax Bands.

So a haulage company running 6 X 38 T lorries each doing 100,000 miles a year, would incur the following costs:

With each lorry doing 20 MPG, they would use 5000 gallons of petrol per annum; as the 13p was in litres and as there are 4.546 litres in a gallon, that's 59p per gallon. For that one lorry, that's an extra running cost ,in fuel, of £2950 per annum....for the fleet of 6 lorries that's £17,700 per annum. Now there may be plenty of I can handle it types like you 2 around, but you really need to look at the wider implications; because haulage firms are not exactly having an easy time at the moment........So they'd either pass that cost on to you, or go Bust.........guess which one. Incidentally, it would more than cover their road Tax; which on a lorry that size is about £1,500 per annum.

[soppysofty]

Maybe, if the tax was on fuel, we would see the sort of fuel saving measures and emission reducing standards on LGV/PCV vehicles as we have on cars.

Why should a luxury, high end car with a 5 ltr engine return 30 + to the gallon when a lorry using the same size engine only returns 10 - 20 mpg?

[evoman3957]

It's all to do with power to weight ratio, the torque required to pull 38 to 40 tons; is far greater than that required to pull a Bentley ( which is about 2 tons ). The more an engine has to drive / work , the less economy it generates.  It has always been understood, that to run "Air Conditioning" in a car; will reduce its fuel economy and that's just having to drive the Air Conditioning pump, so to pull a Caravan....or tow 38 Tons of trailer...........well it speaks for itself. Attach your 5 litr Car to a medium size Horse Box and then see how good the fuel economy is.

[soppysofty]

OK, that I can understand.

Untaxed lorries etc. are not an issue (I think) so why don't we leave the 'heavies' as they are but introduce a fuel surcharge for cars etc?

It can be levied at point of sale by the garage/petrol station.

Not to complicated to set up and everyone is then happy.

Only problem is how do you deal with the foreign lorries who use our roads and, currently, pay nothing for the privelige.

Maybe a fuel surcharge is the answer as the revenue gained from foriegn lorries would mean that we could subsidise our own hauliers.

Might also cut back on the foriegn hauliers and generate more work for our own lads?

[evoman3957]

I just know how people react, when the the price of fuel goes up just 5p a litre or so..........13p per litre or 59p per gallon, would send a lot of people into meltdown. Although I have 2 Cars, one £30 per year tax and the other £240 per year tax; I could handle that kind of increase. However, if I was not so well off and my Car was "Crucial" to me, for various reasons, that kind of added expenditure could be the straw the broke the Camels Back. Add to that the fact that if I had a Car that was rated in a low Tax bracket, or even Zero Tax rated, if I was then hit by an increase in fuel duty of 59p per gallon ( to subsidize those with Cars in a high Tax bracket , or those that didn't pay ) I would be slightly miffed to say the least. It goes without saying, that you don't see many people that are ranked among the lower paid; cruising around in Cars under 3 years old.  In fact, most struggle to keep the Car they have got on the road and obviously the older they are ( Cars that is ) ;the more often things go wrong ( well actually that applies to both Cars and People ). It cost the same to repair their car ( labour ) as it does anybody else's ( so no help from the state or anybody else there ). Lower paid people also don't have the luxury of being able to buy "electric" or "hybrid" vehicles, which I'm sure they would love to have; just for the reduced running costs alone. So, I just think that if you want create another idea, that appears reasonable to some, but in fact ends up penalising those in society that can least afford it; increasing the fuel duty, to replace the road tax ,will do just that.

[jd.linklater]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

I just know how people react, when the the price of fuel goes up just 5p a litre or so..........13p per litre or 59p per gallon, would send a lot of people into meltdown. Although I have 2 Cars, one £30 per year tax and the other £240 per year tax; I could handle that kind of increase. However, if I was not so well off and my Car was "Crucial" to me, for various reasons, that kind of added expenditure could be the straw the broke the Camels Back. Add to that the fact that if I had a Car that was rated in a low Tax bracket, or even Zero Tax rated, if I was then hit by an increase in fuel duty of 59p per gallon ( to subsidize those with Cars in a high Tax bracket , or those that didn't pay ) I would be slightly miffed to say the least. It goes without saying, that you don't see many people that are ranked among the lower paid; cruising around in Cars under 3 years old.  In fact, most struggle to keep the Car they have got on the road and obviously the older they are ( Cars that is ) ;the more often things go wrong ( well actually that applies to both Cars and People ). It cost the same to repair their car ( labour ) as it does anybody else's ( so no help from the state or anybody else there ). Lower paid people also don't have the luxury of being able to buy "electric" or "hybrid" vehicles, which I'm sure they would love to have; just for the reduced running costs alone. So, I just think that if you want create another idea, that appears reasonable to some, but in fact ends up penalising those in society that can least afford it; increasing the fuel duty, to replace the road tax ,will do just that.

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I thought the idea of taxing fuel as opposed to taxing vehicles would appeal to people like yourself who have more than one car. You can only drive one car at a time so you only pay tax when you're actually driving. Better I would have thought than taxing 2 vehicles 365 days a year, it has to be a saving for you surely.  

[evoman3957]

Yes, you're right.....but it's not all about me. Although I don' have money to throw away, if a change would help save £ millions in lost revenue; by weeding out "Bums" who don't pay their way in this Country, it would be worth it. After all, maybe the money saved; could then go towards something else, that would make this Country better...........one way or another.  All I've ever owed money for, is a mortgage; if I couldn't afford something, then I didn't have it......until I could. I didn't even have Children, until I was living securely and could afford to keep them myself. That, to me, is what separates me from the Beasts of the Field; which, after all, as a "Human Being" we are supposed to be above.........are we not !

[jd.linklater]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

Yes, you're right.....but it's not all about me. Although I don' have money to throw away, if a change would help save £ millions in lost revenue; by weeding out "Bums" who don't pay their way in this Country, it would be worth it. After all, maybe the money saved; could then go towards something else, that would make this Country better...........one way or another.  All I've ever owed money for, is a mortgage; if I couldn't afford something, then I didn't have it......until I could. I didn't even have Children, until I was living securely and could afford to keep them myself. That, to me, is what separates me from the Beasts of the Field; which, after all, as a "Human Being" we are supposed to be above.........are we not !

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Adding road tax charges to fuel would certainly close the loophole for the 560,000 'Bums' who are currently avoiding paying it, as I said previously that would bring in close to £90 million.

I have the same high regard for managing my personal economy as yourself, I don't owe anyone a bean either. I guess I should be grateful that saves me being labelled a Beast of the Field.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Scrap the tax altogether - Excise duty is a regressive tax costing those less able to pay it just as much as the more wealthy - increase general taxation to cover the loss to the Exchequer.

We all use the roads, drivers and non-drivers.

[soppysofty]

Just a thought - what about the cyclists?

They use the roads and even have special lanes marked out for them but contribute absolutely nothing towards the costs involved through road tax.