When does democracy become.......

[cee-dee]

When does Democracy become mob rule?

Failing that, when does mob rule become democracy?

Democracy is supposed to be the rule of the people and that's usually decided by the majority supporting the same idea?

I'm particularly thinking about the case of Ched Evans and the statement made by the chairman of Sheffield United that Ched Evans was prevented from playing there by mob rule (otherwise reported as "mob-like behaviour").

Now it seems that Oldham Athletic are considering offering him a place and there's been reports that they won't be swayed by any similar protest. A bit insensitive that isn't it considering the many recent reports concerning Oldham and Rochdale abuses?

[evoman3957]

It's the same old Human trait isn't it.........as long as it doesn't effect YOU ( collectively ), beat your chest and howl indignations for a Week.......then forget it and move on. Then when something happens to YOU, people wonder why everybody else has forgotten about it a Week later.

[bankhaunter]

Oldham are not taking him on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30727729

[tommy.irene]

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans ... R v Ched Evans (Chedwyn Evans) Summary Click on 'Full Transcript' (to the left) to see the official Court of Appeal Judgment The applicant (a footballer) was convicted of **bleep** and sentenced to five years' imprisonment. A co-defendant, McDonald, was charged with **bleep** on the same girl. He was acquitted by the jury. The complainant, who was 19 years old, worked as a waitress in a restaurant attached to a hotel. The applicant and McDonald were close friends. There was no doubt that McDonald had sexual intercourse with the girl on the night of 29/30 May 2011. Equally, there was no doubt that the applicant also had sexual intercourse with her. The issues for the jury were: whether she may have consented, although she had consumed a large quantity of alcohol; and if she did not consent, whether the applicant (and McDonald in his case) may reasonably have believed that she had consented to the sexual activity which took place between her and McDonald and between her and the applicant. The complainant stated that she had no memory of any sexual activity with either of the two men.

[astrologica]

So if the victim had no memory of the 'assault', how does she know whether she gave consent or not? This was a very unsatisfactory case. And an unsatisfactory verdict. It could have been a classic case of 'next day remorse'. If Mr Evans is innocent as he claims, then he is right not to show remorse. Even if it jeopardises his chances of resuming his career. The behaviour of Mr Evans and his friend ws abhorrent. The behaviour of the victim ws abhorrent. But only three people know whether consent was given...the people in the room. None of us should judge Mr Evans because we weren't there. It is entirely possible that he is innocent and that there has been a miscarriage of justice. Mob rule has won through on this occasion and it is a sad day.

[cee-dee]

That's most unfair!

There was CCTV evidence which clearly showed the woman was in no fit state to consent to anything.

He knew what he was doing = sordidly taking advantage of a drunken young woman and in so doing gave no thought to any loyalty to his girlfriend.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Did she consent to get in the taxi and go to the hotel with McDonald? - the taxi driver must have thought so.

[suzieseaside]

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@cee-dee wrote:

That's most unfair!

There was CCTV evidence which clearly showed the woman was in no fit state to consent to anything.

He knew what he was doing = sordidly taking advantage of a drunken young woman and in so doing gave no thought to any loyalty to his girlfriend.

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Really? The CCTV video I saw showed her perfectly capable of walking to the hotel reception in high heels and then walking out again on her own to pick up a pizza they had left outside, and then back in again. Allegedly she told Macdonald she was going with him, and I doubt that she suggested going to his hotel room to play scrabble or have a nice cuppa and a chat did she?

I'm not excusing Evans - what you say is true - he did know what he was doing and what he did was sordid, sleazy and he shouldn't have taken advantage of a woman who was drunk. However, allegedly the woman asked him to join in and that she sent messages the next day to her friends to say something like "when I win big" (those are on his website, so are they faked or not??). If she did do that I find it hard to believe that she couldn't remember anything.

That is no excuse for Evan's behaviour of course and I feel sorry for her after what has happened since, in that she has had to change her identity and move because of the hate mail - that is tragic. What Evans did was despicable and inexcusable, but the public threats against family members of staff of any club who chooses to sign him I think are disgusting too.  

[astrologica]

The disloyalty to his girl friend has no bearing whatsoever on this case,or his guilt or innocence. He wasn't tried for disloyalty...he was tried for r***. Some people seem to have lost sight of that fact. He did behave abominably,as did his friend. But the girl was heard to ask his friend for reassurance that he was not going to leave her. So she was not totally unfit to think for herself. She went willingly to that room. And as Suzie says...It was probably not to play scrabble. So it is not unfair. This is a salutary lesson regarding self-responsibility. Lack of self-responsibility is a scourge in this country. So many people think that they can not take care of themselves and that someone else will get them out of the proverbial. This girl is now paying the price for not taking care of herself sensibly. Mr Evans is also paying the price for his actions.The sooner Mr Evans gets a re-trial the better, then everyone can move on.

[cee-dee]

The judge himself said that "The complainant was extremely intoxicated. CCTV footage shows, in my view, the extent of her intoxication when she stumbled into your friend......" and continued that she was in no condition to have sexual intercourse.

Macdonald texted Evans to say he "had got a bird" (charming eh?) the clear implication being an invitation to do what they did.

Also, two "friends" were watching through a window and attempted to film what was going on.

Yes, the girls was stupid to get in to the state she was in but both men knew she was incapable and took advantage of her and there was no contradiction to the fact that her drinks may have been spiked.

Although, as has been said he wasn't tried for being disloyal, his attitude isn't one most people would want any connection with:-

"When arrested and interviewed by police, Evans boasted to cops that he and McDonald "could have had any girl" they wanted in a nightclub they had been to.

He told them: "We were drinking, having fun there. It’s not uncommon we pick up girls. Clayton’s an attractive guy. We are footballers, that’s how it is.

"Footballers are rich, they have got money, that’s what the girls like."

[tommy.irene]

So none of you read the court case papers.. thats why i put the link up ... https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

[tommy.irene]

x

[tommy.irene]

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@tommy.irene wrote:
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans ... R v Ched Evans (Chedwyn Evans) Summary Click on 'Full Transcript' (to the left) to see the official Court of Appeal Judgment The applicant (a footballer) was convicted of **bleep** and sentenced to five years' imprisonment. A co-defendant, McDonald, was charged with **bleep** on the same girl. He was acquitted by the jury. The complainant, who was 19 years old, worked as a waitress in a restaurant attached to a hotel. The applicant and McDonald were close friends. There was no doubt that McDonald had sexual intercourse with the girl on the night of 29/30 May 2011. Equally, there was no doubt that the applicant also had sexual intercourse with her. The issues for the jury were: whether she may have consented, although she had consumed a large quantity of alcohol; and if she did not consent, whether the applicant (and McDonald in his case) may reasonably have believed that she had consented to the sexual activity which took place between her and McDonald and between her and the applicant. The complainant stated that she had no memory of any sexual activity with either of the two men.

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[cee-dee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30698618

Interesting responses there?

[tommy.irene]

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@cee-dee wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30698618

Interesting responses there?

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....Looks like he might be signing on the dole..

[astrologica]

Yes Tommy...I did read those papers. And I don't think that anything I have posted would contradict anything in those papers. It's one big mess. Two lives have been ruined because those three people failed to think about the consequences of their actions.

[cee-dee]

One thing is clear, we live in a society where we can discuss such things and don't go around shooting people who don't share our points of view?

[evoman3957]

Make Guns easy to get hold of and see how long THAT lasts.

[aernethril]

Another view - from a long-time family OA supporter

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/09/oldham-fans-view-why-i-am-relieved-we-are-not-signin...

The thing is, as this supporter has cited, not even the clubs are 'getting' this - they only decided not to sign for financial reasons and alleged (but so far nor reported) claims of harrassment of board members and threats to their families.

Where were these board members when the "complainant" (to use the legal term) was then victimised and threatened by those who were supporters of Evans, even tho only now he says they are not.

He was very happy for this to be going on as long as he thought he was going to be welcomed back into the fold of the 'glorious game'.

Now he isn't, he has to change tack.

As for deciding that the court case was a mess, I'm not so sure it was given a lot of very clear evidence and damning evidence for both the victim and the footballers.

And it doesn't take much to read that his stories still do not add up - he shifts and changes - swinging in the wind.

I hope this will all die down now and that Evans will face up to the fact that his procurement of a room for the purpose of joining in a multiple person sexual activity, which he then skulked away from, having allowed his 'friend's to film his 'prowess' is his own responsibililty and downfall.  His courting of publicity after the fact is equally his own choice and it has come back to bite him where it hurts.

A very long time of reflection in private to allow everyone affected to heal is what is needed now. 

Evans has apparently refused to accept any programme to help him learn from his actions, so the victim is never going to receive the acknowledgement that she needs to help her.

[tommy.irene]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

Make Guns easy to get hold of and see how long THAT lasts.

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......................... http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/25/gun-ownership-firearms-certificates

[evoman3957]

Well we're not quite in America's league yet, just popping down to the Supermarket; to get some Milk, Bread, Cigarettes and an M16 Assault Rifle.