Those that are not......?

[cee-dee]

There's an old saying "Those that are not with me are against me" so is Merkel thinking/saying that when she said:- "The times in which we could completely depend on others are on the way out. I've experienced that in the last few days. We Europeans truly have to take our fate into our own hands"

Perhaps she realises that the UK and the USA have propped up Europe for  so long and that the good times are now over?

On the other hand, perhaps she's thinking that with the UK and the USA out of the way, now is the time for Germany to dominate European thinking?

[**bustysinclaire**]

Who knows what really goes on in the minds of world leaders.   Xxx

I'm so glad I don't have to worry myself over such things.  As the future is very much taken care of. Xx

[fallen-archie]

All I know is that leaders have a responsibility to their electorate and as such will/should always seek out what is in their interests, which is what makes a confederation so impossible to achieve. Whatever Mrs Merkel meant it will certainly favour her own which is one of the reasons we have chosen to leave the grand alliance, Because we too wish to do what is right for us, what the divorce should not do is for either party to profit from it, that is the challenge we face and its us against them,
Let us hope that common sense prevails!

[mikes*corvettes]

Good for her. Now maybe she will start spending more on her own Defense VS having American troops on the ground.

Most of these "Allies" have used America as proxy defense forces so they could squander away their defense money on buying more votes.

[astrologica]

Mother Merkel having a grand pout, because things don't look like they are all going her way.

[aand2136-voqfz8yx]

Merkel is clearly in German election mode and wants to win the hearts and minds of her voters with tough rhetoric. She's also now found the ultimate bosom buddy in Macron regarding the European ideology. She is clearly enormously irritated by Trump's stance regarding climate change and the automotive industry (I think Trump has forgotten that most American cars are rubbish, that's why they buy German). She is also irritated by the UK stance regarding Brexit; with us saying we'll walk out if we don't like what we hear. She's simply hitting back and you can't blame her.

She has to take some responsibility to the UK deciding enough is enough regarding Europe as it was her invitation in 2015 that probably pushed the UK voters over the edge and that then led to our vote to leave the EU last year. She also has to be very careful how far she pushes Trump as he is a little unpredictable and is likely to pull out of NATO. The Americans make up the vast majority of NATO resources, so what will be the point of it in future if that happens. Would we then also leave? Whose troops would then man the eastern borders of Europe? As most of the other NATO nations do not spend 2% of their GDP on defence, it will almost certainly lead to a European Armed Services budget with a shared resource for the remaining 27, allowing them to all benefit from economies of scale. The drive for a federalist system throughout Europe is already taking its toll on many of the Southern European nations, Greece in particular.

I can only imagine that for decades the UK was a thorn in the side of many European nations, the larger ones in particular, so you would have thought that they would be pleased (behind closed doors at least) that we are leaving, but the migration of European citizens from the poorer areas will now be concentrated into fewer countries, so that may cause issues for them in future. There will also be the issue of the loss of funding from the EU budget as the UK was a net contributor; to maintain the same level of funding for the most deprived areas, the richer EU countries will have to increase their payments. It's also possible that many countries relied on the UK's power within the EU to "reign in" the excesses of federalism and ever increasing integration and will miss us from the voting table.

Merkel says the EU will have to go it alone and perhaps this is her opening gambit at the start of more rapid progress towards a European super-state, with all other countries, such as the UK and the US, pushed to the sidelines as being less important in their shared future. Is she sowing the seed of the idea to all her German voters and the politicians and people of all the 27 EU nations?

[cee-dee]

An old pilots joke which has been doing the rounds for many years went something like this:-

A Lufthansa pilot asked in German "Ground, what is our start clearance please?"

Ground replied in English "Lufthansa, if you want an answer you must speak English."

Lufthansa pilot replies in English "I am a German flying a German Aircraft in Germany, why must I speak English?"

Another pilot replies in a clipped, totally British accent "Because you lost the war old chap."

The Lufthansa pilot replied "You might haf von ze vor but ve shall vin ze peace."

It seems to me that the europeans seem to be hell-bent on doing just that?

[al**bear]

Since the early 70s when has the United States ever considered the Interests of Europe in any of their plans

As for the UK we've always just been a useful Aircraft carrier and little more than an obedient Poodle constantly backing their votes & abstentions in votes in the UN, Nato etc

They haven't cared for the UN for many many years and now we see them (not just Trump btw) calling into question the usefulness of NATO

We could have been part of a New Europe, but the Moneymen in London would rather we become the  New Western Singapore

Remember Nigel Farage was a Merchant Banker in the City. Europe's totally Toxic view of Brexit is all down to His behaviour in the European Parliament, He represents the UK in the minds eye of most inside the EU structure

He has been poisoning the Well ever since he entered Politics for ALL of Us

This is just one of many many Memories the EU bring to mind, when Brexit comes up

It is NOT a funny video as the link says

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5jUavMXQrs

[mikes*corvettes]

Well, Farage wasn't wrong about the comments he made about Van Rompuy, also let's not forget about the many years of abuse and ridicule he faced from the EU top brass and other MEP'S because he wanted the UK out of the EU.

It's ironic that Junkers&co, want us to meet our obligations and pay a hefty divorce settlement to the EU, but countries like Luxembourg which Junkers turned into a rich tax haven when he was leader, default on their obligations.

Last year Luxembourg only contributed 0.44% of a minimum of 2% to NATO, Germany and France also defaulted.

Once again it's:

"Don't do as I do, but do as I say".

[j_uk643]

I thought the ancient miller's story was just in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales

I'm sure the NW is the economic powerhouse of the UK too, obviously lol

I'm afraid Germany has outgrown the UK for quite a long period of time, and is likely to continue to do so for the immediate future.So much so, Trump has problems with the German trade surplus, and reportedly attempted numerous times to conclude an individual trade deal with Germany, failing to understand the EU. He must have forgotten about the UK deal obviously. 


Article 5 has only ever been invoked once, and that was after 9/11, when NATO forces came to the aid of the US and put troops on the ground and still have some there.It was a fairly generous interpretation of article 5 for the response required.
The US determines whats in their own best interests, as do most other states. There's little to suggest a nato component in their national outlook beyond whats good for the US is good for NATO.The idea that there is a collective joint fund of any size, and that if member states don't contribute enough, the US puts in more, is fantasy

A Large budget military doesn't always protect you from outside forces as 9/11 demonstrated so tragically despite hundreds of billions of $ expenditures 19 not very sophisticated terrorists defeated all that hardware and systems on an estimated budget of about $500k
Other countries also bear the cost of US policy in the middle east and elsewhere in terms of increased domestic security, intelligence and law enforcement, which don't come under military hardware spending, not to mention refugees .

The US also depend on the support of others as we all do, and not just NATO; especially to fight on the ground.In some cases in it's attempts to remove IS/daesh it relies on forrin female front line troops as young as 17, with basic two week training to defend it's interests, and for no pay.The US apart from advisers, have little to no ground forces there despite designating daesh it's number one world threat.Daesh are often better equipped including using US weapons from Iraq, after former Saddam military forces, removed under US policy and without jobs or pay, defected, equipment and all

I don't think NATO is collapsing, but concerns exists, certainly under Trump, and concerns exist over Russia under Putin
and it's consolidation and apparent expansionist aims
It's understandable and reasonable to express a need to want to review events and Merkel is probably right longer term

I find it interesting of nationalistic drum bangers that despite being an equal European partner, to which they seem to object, the best they can image for the UK is that of a fawning transatlantic lapdog, regardless of with administration or policy
I think it's a great pity Trump didn't manage to squeeze in a few hours in the UK - I can't imagine how or why he missed us out.Overall it was a good result for Putin, and currently all roads seem to lead there

an old joke doing the rounds sounds about right

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@mikes*corvettes wrote:

Well, Farage wasn't wrong about the comments he made about Van Rompuy, also let's not forget about the many years of abuse and ridicule he faced from the EU top brass and other MEP'S because he wanted the UK out of the EU.

It's ironic that Junkers&co, want us to meet our obligations and pay a hefty divorce settlement to the EU, but countries like Luxembourg which Junkers turned into a rich tax haven when he was leader, default on their obligations.

Last year Luxembourg only contributed 0.44% of a minimum of 2% to NATO, Germany and France also defaulted.

Once again it's:

"Don't do as I do, but do as I say".

---

There is a lot of "fake news" generated successfully by Trump that seems to have been swallowed hook, line and sinker by many.

There is no current commitment by NATO members to send ANYTHING to NATO. 

What there is, is an aim to spend 2% of GDP by member countries on there OWN defence - the date for achievement of this aim is 2024 - so none of the NATO countries have defaulted on anything!

[mikes*corvettes]

In 2006 all NATO members agreed to the 2% GDP target.

In 2014 NATO once again pressed for the 2% GDP budget, and countries which fell short of their obligations were given till 2024 to catch up.

So yes France, Germany and Luxembourg have defaulted.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@mikes*corvettes wrote:

In 2006 all NATO members agreed to the 2% GDP target.

In 2014 NATO once again pressed for the 2% GDP budget, and countries which fell short of their obligations were given till 2024 to catch up.

So yes France, Germany and Luxembourg have defaulted.

---

Just more "fake news"

In 2006 at a NATO meeting 2% of GDP was SUGGESTED as a reasonable TARGET to spend on National defence - this was not ratified nor agreed to by a single head of state and was not included as part of the treaty.

In 2014 the question of spending levels was once again raised - again the SUGGESTED level of spending was agreed upon by the majority as 2%.  Once again this target was not ratified by the member countries and the Treaty was not amended to include this target.

You can't default on anything unless there is a commitment to default on.

There is a commitment in the Treaty for each country to send an amount, based on their individual GDP, to NATO to finance its infrastructure - not a single member is in default with regard to this Treaty commitment. 

Poor old Iceland is often included in the list of so called 'defaulters' - they don't even have an army!