The beginning?

[cee-dee]

OK, so "They" say "everything" began with the Big Bang.

Fair enough, it was quite something and happened faster than the blink of an eye?

"They" also say nothing can travel faster than light?

If that's so, how can "They" view light which "began" shortly after the Big Bang?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19728375

We are "here", they're viewing light from a heck of a long way away, such light will have taken billions of years to get here even at approximately 186,000 miles per second.

So how did we get out "here", so far from that light when it was Starlight so long ago?

OK, were we able to get to the source of that light in an instant, we'd find it was probably no longer there but we are billions of miles from where that light was so how come the matter from which our Solar System was formed got sooooo far away from the Stars they're no "seeing"?

[*forum*decorum*]

hi FD, tyou have faith in god and i for onre will never try to take that away or mock any faith, in saying that you know there has to be a but............but the earths eco system i am sorry to say has evolved and still is. the very oxygen we breathe is by earth standard time frame  new. it is fact that millions of years ago this planets atmosphere was mostly C02 with a methane carbohydrates mix. even going back to the start of the dinosaur era the carbon dioxide levels were much higher than today. the gas oxygen is a by product ( a waste gas) that was expelled by primitive plants long before the first T Rex walked the planet. the eco system we have today as said has evolved even trees as we know them, grass and flowering plants are all relativly new.

we can only speculate at how earths eco system will evolve, at present we the humans are killing it.    

Hello Pete,

I really am not disputing some of what you say. I am no scientist myself. As you stated yourself most of it is just theory, we haven't got the ability and brain power to begin to understand everything there is to know about the universe we are afterall only mere humans, very primative in comparison to our creator.

One of the things I am disputing is the this evolving bit.

I whole heartedly agree with you the eco system has been changed it has reacted in negative ways to the damage done to it by mankind.

It is mankind ruining the earth.

Jehoveh God will be restoring anything that has been damaged back to how it was meant to be before mankind destroyed it.

I am not disputing your knowledge on stars exploding for instance. What I did say was, anything in the skies above (the vast expance of space that is there sustaining this planet eg the Sun Moon and stars (any stars if they do sustain this planet that is) will stay forever.

Jehovah will make sure all that is needed to sustain this planet will continue to do so.

We have no way of knowing how many years this planet existed before Jehovah created the things on it so yes, vegitation and life as we know it is relatively new.

The Bible states God is the creator of all things it does give us some indication of him being around a very long time before our planet. Could very well be millions of years because as I said before he has always been there. He tells us he created all things but he doesn't state how he created all things. He tells us what we need to know especially in relation to living on this planet and how we can get to know him as our God.

What scientists and explorers discover is only ever what has already been created in the first place, they are only learning and unlocking details that once upon a time they didn't understand but were alreading set in place with a purpose. God already knows everything there is to know about all things, because he created it.

Take the big bang, it has been mimicked/copied by scientists but God has already done it. I cannot dispute that the big bang happened what I can dispute is what happened as a result of it., meaning evolution.

All the scientists have done is tried to peice things together, and what they have done is come to their own assumed conclusions as you say theory not fact.

I would like to ask one question if I may, have you ever read the bible and researched the creation explanation from begining to end.?

I do respect your opinions too Pete and would always want to be respectful toward you even if I don't agree with them and that there isn't a God. I thank you when you treat me with respect too and my opinions.:-)

You have a wonderful ability to photograph much of our universe and your pictures are a joy to see.

[*forum*decorum*]

Trying to be polite....... how on Earth (I nearly said "in Heavens name"!) do you claim God is supposed to have told Man what to write?

I appreciate politeness, thank you.:^O, but I do wonder how you imagine a God to be (if he exists). You clearly are underestimating him. We say he because everything about him points to the masculine.

He does not have mass, he is a spirit being and size is completely unimaginable, and so is his capabilities and power.

The whole thing is a collection of ancient myths and stories all cobbled together to explain what, at the time was inexplicable and to suit those with (at that time) a vested interest in maintaining a form of control over the population.

You of course are entitled to your opinions CD, but that is all they are peoples opinions.

I would like to ask you the same question, have you ever read the bible and researched the creation explanation?

If you had you would at least have been informed and helped to understand that God isn't about controlling the population. He created us so we could enjoy life, he is a God of love and working to restore this planet back to perfection, he has so many wonderful qualities.

When people say "With the greatest respect" what they really want to say is completely lacking in respect and mostly unprintable!

Why would I not want to show you respect and want to write unprintable comments. I respect people, I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with some. I don't believe in rudeness or unkindness as a way to be, we are certainly not taught to be so. I am however entitled to my opinions too. I certainly do try to do it respectfully so that is why I wrote it in that way.

There are no grounds at all for that comment.:-)

The Sun will definitely die as I (and Pete) said. It will gradually consume all its Hydrogen and start burning Helium. The Sun will expand and get hotter and hotter and eventually the Earth will have all its atmosphere vapourised and the water all boiled off before the whole Planet fries to a cinder.

As I explained about God and his promise then no, I don't agree with you because if it did then our planet would too and I have no doubt at all that God will fullfil his promise.

I have no doubt at all that God has the power to do so.

As that's a few billion years away yet, I won't worry about it.

I have learnt that God will be taking steps to fullfil his promises in the not too distance future and I for one ant to be apart of it.

CD I really do have faith that it will be.:-x

[cee-dee]

The myth of "The Creation" as seen through the Rose Tinted glasses as depicted in the Bible was an idealistic take on things but it had absolutely nothing to do with a God, neither as a spirit or physical being.

The power trip about which I spoke has everything to do with those who attempted to use all the religious angles to control the simple people of long ago and has nothing to offer the 21st century except providing a comforting cushion for The Faithful who, I'm afraid will not inherit the Earth.

"He" is certainly not working to "restore this Planet to perfection" because it never was perfection.

Had it been so, why did the Planet have to suffer The Great Bombardment or Snowball Earth (not once, but twice? I suppose you're in denial about that?

Natural events on Earth have done their best to destroy it and all life as well. Natural events will eventually not only destroy all life but the planet itself and if you're in denial about that, well, that's just like the Witch Doctor telling the native warriors that if they have faith in him, the White Man's bullets won't harm them.

Eventually, the whole Universe will be full of Stars that suffer the same fate as our Sun, they'll consume all their fuel and die.

If you believe otherwise, like the hereafter, you're going to be greatly disappointed.

[*forum*decorum*]

Eventually, the whole Universe will be full of Stars that suffer the same fate as our Sun, they'll consume all their fuel and die.

If you believe otherwise, like the hereafter, you're going to be greatly disappointed.

Then I will happily wait on Jehovah to prove you wrong and be happy with having the answers to all my questions about life how did it get here? and be content with the life I lead now to have the promise personally fulfilled. Even now my life is full of rich blessings and I am protected from many things. I hope I can stay faithful.:-)

[cee-dee]

You're going to have a very, very long wait ending in a massive disappointment.

The evidence, and I mean real evidence not half imagined wishful thinking is on the Planet and is there to be found if you're looking in the right place.

Most of the evidence on Earth of the great bombardment is either hidden or gone altogether but the moon (and Mars?) still shows what happened here.

Then again the evidence of the great age of the evolving Earth is locked up in the rocks. That is, the evidence of the time after the Earth coalesced from a molten sphere is there to be found. Evidence of the massive collisions is there to be found. Evidence of the atmosphere from long ago is also the be found in the rocks and of later times, more evidence can be found in the ice sheets, the Greenland Ice sheet is about a mile and a half thick so there's plenty of trapped gas/atmosphere and pollen grains which provide an insight in to times long past.

You're not saying God created the rocks as they are complete with all the layers and fossils? You're not saying God created the ice sheets complete with contents as is?

Did God cover the Earth with ice and froze the oceans to a depth of around a mile and covered the land with ice miles thick? It stayed like that for several million years. If what you say is so did God do that for? (I suppose ours is not to reason why?)

Did God give the people surrounding Lake Nyos a blessing? People who escaped wouldn't listen to the scientist predicting a gas release from Lake Monoun so another blessing killed more people. Nice chap if was God who did that?

You can shut your mind to the things said by people who know better but the evidence of what I've said is out there. There's none so blind as those who will not see.

[Anonymous]

hi FD, thankyou for your reply to my picture of the crab nebula, i for one wish i had your faith and as such i would never try to dislodge the faith you have. i am pleased we can discuss without shouting or name calling, as always there is more than one side to any debate, i see you have put gods side, whereas i have put the astronomers side, one day both will meet in unison and all will be well, untill then, well we can debate some more.

[spawnjohnuk]

so the end is nigh ...funny how an entire existence of a life form can create a total understanding working of this,elaborated to fit into a conditioning of thought patterns of a populous. Then use that as a guideline for creating an entire philosophy of how to live well, all things considered ,,to create an idealism for living in the middle of nowhere with no hope whatsoever for continuing,unless a very big spaceship is built and the animals get on board two by two and off we go to test Einstein's theory and more importantly put cds mind to rest.

You could also say 'thank the lord we just happen to land on the part of the big blown up planety thing that can sustain life as we know it'.

Alternatively you could say ''oh carp we are well and truly in it now,lets build a that spaceship and figureout  a way to shift 150000000000000 species of universal missymassy about this god forsaken glump of twiddlesticks ''

goodbye all you odd strange and wonderful looking things,the end is well and truly nigh.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I am an atheist but of course that is only a matter of faith in the same way that that those who believe in God have faith.

You cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God.

As soon as you accept that God could be responsible for creating the singularity that initiated the "Big Bang" then you have to accept that God could have spoken to man through the various religious texts which are the basis of the various religious groups.  After all in comparison to the "power" required to create the start of the universe this would be just a small matter for such a God.

Those that won't accept that God could be responsible for everything in existence and the way it has been formed are just as closed in their opinions as those who won't accept that it could be possible that there is no God.

The bottom line is that it it is a matter of faith one way or the other, neither can be proved, both faiths have equal standing and belief in one or the other should be no excuse for insulting or being derogatory about those with opposite beliefs.

[spawnjohnuk]

was that in ref to my post mr creeky,? are you saying im derogatory to faith or to someone else. I agree by the way that nobody knows anything except what they want to.

without mankind though nothing is leaving this place alive 🙂

[upthecreekyetagain]

No it wasn't specific to your post.

It wasn't a specific criticism of of any individual post rather a comment on the tone this thread seems to have taken.

We can all surely have our own beliefs and live our lives according to those beliefs without trying to force those beliefs on others.

I find it annoying and insulting for instance to be told that I am wrong not to believe in God in the same way that others I am sure feel just the same when told that their God is a nonsense.

That does not mean that we cannot or shouldn't challenge beliefs, such as "if you believe there is no God then what created the singularity that you think is a possible starting point for the Big Bang"?

[spawnjohnuk]

Agree. I myself believe in god the idealism wholeheartedly as I hinted in my post (albeit in my warped sense of humor ) the problem to be solved is of survival and the human race seems to be charged with the job, considering how many millions of species live here , yet none apparently capable of solving the finer details of infinity.

This thread is basically saying to me that big bang (probably a giant planet being torn apart, 'gravity maybe' ,our sun being its core) created it and can end it all. 

Problem solved by the pure will to survive,plus hands and get us all off here and to somewhere new should the need arise.

Pure will and a collective of millions of years of study and conditioning to create this escape ,smacks of a tale of a savior or god right from the very off ,if you see what I mean now.

If not then when I finish the rudder and me ships ready to roll....your not coming lol 🙂

[mustard-tree]

We are told that the Universe is expanding.

As I understand it, if something expands, it expands into something.

So if the Universe is expanding, what is it expanding into

But how is the Universe defined, and does it have an edge.
If it does, what is beyond that edge.

Or am I thinking too simply and too linear.

[upthecreekyetagain]

According to theory then yes you are thinking too "linear" 🙂

In simple terms the space the universe is expanding into is being created as expansion occurs, prior to this it doesn't exist.

[spawnjohnuk]

also technology only lets us see so far,so who knows.there is a great wall (as they call it) that has not been penetrated by any of our scientific means so far. The actual truth of what the hell and where is everybody must be fascinating and a tad scary.

[*forum*decorum*]

I am an atheist but of course that is only a matter of faith in the same way that that those who believe in God have faith.

You cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God.

As soon as you accept that God could be responsible for creating the singularity that initiated the "Big Bang" then you have to accept that God could have spoken to man through the various religious texts which are the basis of the various religious groups.  After all in comparison to the "power" required to create the start of the universe this would be just a small matter for such a God.

Those that won't accept that God could be responsible for everything in existence and the way it has been formed are just as closed in their opinions as those who won't accept that it could be possible that there is no God.

The bottom line is that it it is a matter of faith one way or the other, neither can be proved, both faiths have equal standing and belief in one or the other should be no excuse for insulting or being derogatory about those with opposite beliefs.

Hello Creeky,

A nice post, and I do agree there is no excuse for insults or being derogatory about those with opposite beleifs.

If I have at all come across like that and offended anyone I apologise very strongly. I would never want to do that as I respect the fact that not all will have the same belief as I.

If I by my posts have offended you personally in anyway because I strongly believe in what I have explained to the point of saying I feel others are wrong then I do apologise for that too. But that is what faith is, if I cannot defend my beliefs to the point of thinking they are the true ones then I don't have true whole hearted faith do I.

It is how we put across our opinions and how we accept others even if they are different to our own that is important, but we all have to accept that others will feel we are wrong sometimes but not take it personally.

That is one thing we have been taught in our faith that there will be many who disagree with us, but we are still required to go and tell people, if they say no thank you I am not interested then we respect those wishes.

As for a thread like this then we are all entitled to take part and give our opinions because that is waht the OP has invited, we have an obligation then to do it in a respectful and kind uninsulting way, and I also feel, not to be too sensitive too and not too quick to acuse someone of being disrespectful when they really weren't. (Hope that meaks sense - I know what I mean though:-))

So perhaps we should make sure we read a post thouroughly and see if we understand the poster properly before we jump in head first and put up the defences. We can always ask the poster if how you have taken something was meant.

Comunication sometimes is not something we all do very well.

[cee-dee]

The vastness of space is breathtaking really and we have a very, very long road to travel (in technological terms) if we're ever going to get anywhere with space travel.

Currently, we can't travel fast enough. To illustrate this, the Voyager spacecraft were launched 35 years ago..... Yes, it really is that long ago and Voyager 1 is "only" about 11,400,000,000 miles away and just about entering interstellar space.

Really, I think that although it's "interesting" to look in to deep space, it's all a bit of a waste of time at the moment and more of that effort ought to be concentrated on propulsion systems and the survivability of faster spacecraft.

By "survivability", I'm particularly thinking of "sheilds up" (Startrek). Hitting even a speck of dust at very high space-speed could result in the destruction of the craft (and crew).

By spending so much time and effort on deep space seems to me to be a bit like the Wright Brothers contemplating travelling at Mach 3.

[cee-dee]

Voyager is "only" travelling at around 36,000 MPH (give or take a couple of thousand MPH) = about 10 miles per second and in terms of Space Travel, that speed is snail speed!

They've a long way to go to get to 186,000 miles per second and even at that speed, it's too slow.

Our nearest Star neighbour (after the Sun!!) is Proxima Centauri and travelling directly at the speed of light would take us just over 4 years and a month to get there.

After the other two Stars in Centauri (A & B), the next nearest Star would take us 6 years to get there travelling at the speed of light.

Sooooo, currently, we can't travel fast enough to get anywhere in Space and I think that looking back in time to "see" Stars & etc that are no longer there (because the died or went Super Nova long ago) is really a waste of effort, time and money and "they" should concentrate on Star systems much closer to us looking for Stars with Planets in the Habitable Zone. Then concentrate on propulsion systems and protection systems for the spacecraft.

In the end, they might discover that a bit of Sci-Fi was right, it's only micro sized craft and beings which will be capable of inter-stellar travel.

[Anonymous]

hi cd, long ago they said that the sound barrier was an impasse, and just because one person came up with E = MC2 (squared) dose not mean that we are stuck with the faster than light impasse. at present we do not have the know how, just like the pioneers of the airplane a jet was way beyond them, but we learned and we built the jet engine. who knows what the next few hundred years will bring, plasma drive is science fact now,

i do belive there are intelligent life forms out there, who have the knowledge of interstellar flight, who knows maybe voyager may meetthem and by learning to read the gold disc within  voyager of earth they just may give us a visit.

[not-another-one]

A while ago there was a program comparing the bible we all know today to it's distant original. The alterations etc over the years are vast and if God in some way wrote it then thats fine but he didn't write the one we read today.

There were countless reasons for this. Pope's Kings etc wanted this and that etc changed. Translations from Latin to English etc were incorrect, place/peoples names changed and on and on and on. Corruption of words that then altered their meaning over the years.

Oddly the modern day churches now have the facilities to put this back in order (shall we say back into Gods own true words) but for reasons best known to them choose not to.

Amen.

[not-another-one]

And there might be another universe a long long way away (in cosmological terms) that is also expanding out just like ours, perhaps even coming this way.