Syria.

[astrologica]

Just watching the news, and the terrible bombing in Syria. The suffering of those children is unbelievable. But one thing escapes me...the war in Syria has been going on for seven years, so why are people continuing to bring babies into the world when they know that the country is at war and the situation is so unstable? After WW2 , the birth rate in the U.K, and other countries rose dramatically, creating a baby boom. This suggests that people were waiting until the end of the war to bring babies into a safer world. It seems to me that these poor children in the war torn Middle East are born to suffer, and maybe die, just like the others being born in Africa where food is scarce.  Seems like the lives of these poor children are cheap.

[fallen-archie]

You are bringing up a difficult topic Astro, wherever you look in impoverished countries you get out of control population growth, being a man of leisure these days I am constantly reminded on the TV about the endless suffering of children and the need for life insurance to cover the cost of my funeral! Both irritate me but I have insurance so the only thing to bother about is this never ending suffering. We will not solve it by bringing them all to the uk, we usually fail diplomatically to resolve problems and so often aid is frittered away into the hands of corrupt politicians! I don’t know what can be done to help but a little bit more responsible behaviour by parents would help as would a political system capable of helping people rather than themselves!

[astrologica]

Archie...I agree, it is a difficult topic. In an ideal world, the UN would try and encourage these war torn countries to reduce the number of babies being born during wartime, but the UN is a pathetic organisation and doesn't seem to have the will to protect these children. I do wonder if the reason that these women keep having children is due to ignorance or their culture. I rather suspect it is the latter, and if that is so then the poor women wouldn't have much choice.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Astro, Xxx 

It could even be as simple as having a bit of pleasure, the only thing that they can actually get that doesn't cost  tem anything at the time, .nothing else is available.  

When you get into a desperate state, sensible and unselfish rational thinking can go out of the window, I would even go as far as to say that many of these women don't have a say in what the men want or take xx

[astrologica]

Those were my very words Busty. If that is the case, then it's selfish and irresponsible to not consider whether a few moments pleasure is worth the suffering that their children will endure. It's heartbreaking to watch those little children with terrible injuries and see their bewilderment when their homes are bombed. I often think it would be better if they had never been born..

[**bustysinclaire**]

I feel exactly the same about the children, .I cry buckets of tears every time I see them.

The parents are just desensitised completely, not capable of thinking in a rational way, they certainly won't be thinking "oh we can't do this because"

I'm not sure it right but I do have sympathy in some circumstances.  It is a terrible situation many are having to endure, I don't think it is my place to judge at all.  Xx

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@astrologicawrote:

Just watching the news, and the terrible bombing in Syria. The suffering of those children is unbelievable. But one thing escapes me...the war in Syria has been going on for seven years, so why are people continuing to bring babies into the world when they know that the country is at war and the situation is so unstable? After WW2 , the birth rate in the U.K, and other countries rose dramatically, creating a baby boom. This suggests that people were waiting until the end of the war to bring babies into a safer world. It seems to me that these poor children in the war torn Middle East are born to suffer, and maybe die, just like the others being born in Africa where food is scarce.  Seems like the lives of these poor children are cheap.

---

Making no judgement either way it should be noted that the birth rate in the UK rose substantially during WW2.

https://visual.ons.gov.uk/birthsanddeaths/

[right-then-petal]

American's Creeky American's

[fallen-archie]

I Know you were not making a judgement Creeky but apart from your observation vis a vis war, what should we do when intervention has failed, as has diplomacy and the NGOs seem to be rowing uphill?

[upthecreekyetagain]

If there was a panacea to this situation then I’m sure that brighter minds than mine would have come up with it by now. 

One thing I am certain of is that whatever arguments may be made against humanitarian aid and assistance it does more good than evil.  I’m sure that there is wastage, corruption and misdirection of funds but that does not justify any reduction - it is the faults in the system that should be addressed rather than sacrifice the good that is done. 

[fallen-archie]

I couldn’t agree with you more, I too am anxious to see aid continue especially to bring clean water and sanitation etc etc. I wasn’t however seeking a panacea although I would be delighted if one were to be pulled out of the hat yet there must be some way to help these people help themselves in building a community and indeed a nation that is forward looking and above all compassionate, one which offers free education for all and a chance to better oneself above all a society that is prepared to share its resources with the flora and fauna around it recognising the need for controlled population etc etc

[astrologica]

Creepy..I read that link before I posted this thread. It does not say that there was a rise in the birth rate during WW2..it says that there was a significant rise in births, indeed a baby boom, after the war. Sure this must mean that people felt it safer to wait to have children until after the war had ended. If people could do that in the 1940's, then surely people in Syria could do it in the 2000's. 

I freely admit to being judgmental about this, and a lot of other areas where suffering is caused by people being irresponsible or selfish. When these images are beamed into my living room during news broadcasts, showing the appalling suffering that these children endure,and I can do not one thing to help stop it..it makes me very angry. This war seems interminable, and there are many facets to it and it seems that it isn't going to end any time soon. So surely those people should be preventing more suffering by not having children.

That is simple common sense.

This has been brought home sharply to me in the last few weeks. I have three adult grand daughters, and during debates with them over the years I have said that I wouldn't bring a child into this precarious world. But..on Valentine's Day, one of them presented me with a beautiful great grand daughter, premature, but tiny and perfect. I already love her more than life itself. I  found myself thinking yesterday that if this country were enduring a war, as in Syria, then I would probably wish she had never been born. These mothers in Syria also love their children..so I cannot understand why they would deliberately allow them to be born into suffering. It must be the case that they have no say in the matter.

As for aid to these countries, that is another minefield, and I won't comment on that.

[astrologica]

Sorry Creeky! Didn't mean to address you As Creepy!😂It wasn't a Freudian slip..just predictive typing! Do forgive me!

[upthecreekyetagain]

My reading of the data and graph on that site indicates that the births increased from around 600,000 to over 750,000 during the war.  The birth ‘rate’ in turn would be higher as the population fell during the same period.

It is true that many parents and family may well wish that children born into certain situations had never been born but quite frankly it is not their place to do so - the ones you should be asking are the children, can you point me to many of those who express such desires?

[upthecreekyetagain]

PS - I have been called far worse names than Creepy -  

[astrologica]

I'm not going to argue about data...I feel that the fact that there was a baby boom after the war shows that people felt it was safer to hold on until then.

And no...I cannot point you to any such children, but surely it is natural for parents and grandparents to want the best  for their children, and that includes not living in a war zone. I am not saying that everyone would feel as I do...but that is my view and I am entitled to hold it. These are precarious times for practically every country in this world.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Of course parents and families want the best for their children - the point I was making is that it is presumptive of them to wish that those children had never been born.

No sane person would want their children to grow up in a war zone but that doesn’t mean they weren’t wanted.

As for the baby boom following the end of WW2 - surely the most likely explanation for this is that there were hundreds of thousands of men returning from war, many of whom had not had female company for years!