Sir Jimmy Saville

[thecollectorssurplus]

No thread about this on here, so I thought I'd start one. 

My starter for ten is this: Okay, I'm not saying anybody is making anything up, but why did all these people wait till he was dead before accusing him of all this stuff? And quite frankly, now he's dead, what can come from it other than tarnishing a reputation that was spotless and upsetting his grieving family even further. Seems basically wrong to me. Why does someone always have to bring down our heroes and role models? They should have done what they're doing now ten years ago or not at all if you ask me.

Nick

[geographically*challenged]

'The operation has three strands.

One is looking specifically at the actions of Jimmy Savile and the second strand concerns allegations against "Savile and others". The separate third strand relates to alleged complaints against other people unconnected to the Jimmy Savile investigations.

Scotland Yard said the man they took to a central London police station on Thursday morning was being investigated under the last strand of Yewtree's investigations.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20627765

[upthecreekyetagain]

I trust there is real substance to all these allegations otherwise a lot of reputations are going to be permanently destroyed.

[cee-dee]

Well, you saw how the thread on "evidence" went?

You do have to ask why has it taken so long for the allegations to surface, why now, and after all's said and done, is it really fair to smear the name of an "accused" before the "accusers" face up?

[cee-dee]

Clifford has been released on bail and denies the accusations saying they're distressing, damaging and untrue.

I guess that denying the accusations will attract the comment "Well he would, wouldn't he?" but like I've said on the "evidence" thread, a verbal accusation shouldn't be taken as evidence without it leading to hard evidence?

OK, it's all in the air at the moment and we don't know if hard evidence might be found (can't think what that might be dating from 1977?) but surely until such evidence comes to light, an accuseds name shouldn't be splashed all over "the media" as, even if no further evidence is found and he's not charged, in the public eye he'll be regarded as guilty by association (with such things)?

[upthecreekyetagain]

On the other hand it may lead to others coming forward with either corroborating evidence or further accusations.

[kreemeemunkee]

If you take a good close look at the proceedings it looks to all intents and purposes to be a witch hunt against a group of 1970s celebrities.

The law (police and cps) petitioned parliament for such a length of time to lower the bar as to what constitutes evidence.

I recall a few years ago the CPS were up in arms at the amount of "rapists" walking free from court.

For some reason they just could not hold the view that perhaps these people were walking free from court due to be being found not guilty due to there being no evidence to support such a case.

I believe for the most part here may the evidence that the CPS will only require word of mouth to put forward a case to the sympathetic local magistrates who will by way of due process have no option but to refer the case to the Crown Court and from here chaos will reign.

[cee-dee]

The whole thing is very difficult.

On the one had no-one want the guilty to walk free.

On the other hand you wouldn't want to be accused of something and convicted by the say-so of someone who just thought they'd got some sort of grudge to score with?

Then again, there's the guilty who have an excellent defence team shredding an inept police investigation and they've been coached as to how to behave in front of the jury.

There's others where their defence has been a shambles, their own performance unconvincing and the police case heavily weighted against the accused.

I dunno where we drawe the line, lines have to be drawn somewhere?

[kreemeemunkee]

Certainly....in terms of drawing the line i am convinced and understand that to go back in time prior to the point where many laws were amended is the place where we need to be.

This particular set of allegations clearly demonstrate the dangerous situation that successive governments have created.

As i pointed out, there has for too many years been an undercurrent that "too many criminals have been getting away with it"

What is so perilous when such a frame of mind is allowed to take hold is that over time the burden of proof that the police require to make an arrest has been lowered to such an extent that only word of mouth is required to ensure this.

From here a hearing in front of the local magistrate is the result of word of mouth.

Magistrates at the request of the CPS , who are an arm of the police service will in many case remand in custody and refer to the higher court.

All of this on the basis of someone elses word...in too many cases the the person who's word is relied on usually somewhere along the line does indeed harbour some form of grudge or have an axe to grind, so to speak.

Frighteningly, the burden of proof really has been lowered to the degree that we have recently seen and every member of the population should be feeling concerned at this.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Nothing has really changed when it comes to the power of arrest held by the police.

For the vast majority of cases this has only ever required a reasonable suspicion.

What has changed is how the information that someone has been arrested is so easily disseminated.

In the past news of an individuals arrest was often unknown, even amongst their family.

Which way is better is open to debate but the more "open" way we currently have means, in my opinion, that far more care needs to be taken regarding the grounds for any arrests.

[cee-dee]

The only "grounds" needed is suspicion.

"Good afternoon Mister UTCYA, I'm Inspecter Cloggs, we've had an allegation of assault made against you so I'm asking you if you will accompany me to the Bay police station to help us with our enquiries failing that I will arrest you on suspicion of assault. You do not have to etc etc etc...."

[upthecreekyetagain]

As long as the police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that an assault has actually taken place and that the person being talked to is responsible for that assault then that scenario is what could take place.

In many cases though the suspect would be "invited" to an interview at the station and only if they refused would they be arrested.

[cee-dee]

Correct, that's what I said.

[kreemeemunkee]

Creeky i need to help you out here as your stand is causing me much cause for concern.

Okay...here is the problem.

Your view is based on the quite reasonable assumption that if you are innocent of any allegation that is made then there is no cause for alarm or , indeed suspicion to be levied or burdened to those who are accused.

You base this on the premise that you are only to be held under suspicion in the event of there being good cause for this to be the assumption and that in the light of evidence presented then this will all be well and good.

After all. there is no smoke without fire......right,? well ...wrong actually.

The bar over many years has been lowered to such an extent that the only basis required by the police to carry out a planned arrest is the word of one person.

Do not forget that in all of the cases under scrutiny here and the subsequent arrests that have followed have been sanctioned by the Chief constable and the crown prosecution service.

In many respects i have my doubts that such arrests could be carried out had it not been for the amendments to the Criminal justice act 1991 and the further lowering of the "evidence bar".

These truly are shocking times that we live in.

[charliebird123]

Another one arrested,man in his 60's from London.:-(

[joe_bloggs*]

Exaro News ( http://www.exaronews.com) today reveals that for the last two months the police have secretly been s...

They are looking again at a raid that took place in 1982 on a  guest house in Barnes, south London, which appeared to be being used as a gay brothel and was frequented by prominent figures including, I am told, ministers, Tory MPs, a Liberal MP and two Labour Mps. Under age boys in  the care  of Richmond council and other local authorities were  visiting or staying at the guest house.

Exaro News was put on to this inquiry by a former Richmond Council official and trade unionist and we took him to give evidence to the police who were already investigating similar allegations passed to Tom Watson, the Labour MP. He raised the issue of the 1980s paedo ring in the Commons.

Exaro News will be covering this scandal over the next few days, starting today, and are still investigating, these, and other more serious allegations in other parts of the country.

"Suffice to say anybody who believes that Tom Watson has raised this issue for pure political gain and this is  a fabricated story better  think again very carefully. I know it has very wide ramifications and could  lead to a scandal even bigger than the hacking inquiry."

[algasmoon]

Shame the 1999 operation Ore was halted muzzled and put away for 100yrs by Tony Blair when he issued a D notice,that doesnt get mentioned anymore.

[kreemeemunkee]

Shame the 1999 operation Ore was halted muzzled and put away for 100yrs by Tony Blair when he issued a D notice,that doesnt get mentioned anymore.

Call me suspicious, but would this not be a case of the establishment closing ranks for the means of self protection.

Ask the Police to investigate?

The police are the servants of the establishment, what good will come from any of their investigations?

[bankhaunter]

Shame the 1999 operation Ore was halted muzzled and put away for 100yrs by Tony Blair when he issued a D notice,that doesnt get mentioned anymore.

Operation Ore was a complete mess with thousands of people being investigated and many charged where they were actually victims of credit card fraud.

Even when British police were made aware, they ignored the facts and continued their investigations against people who could easily show their innocence.

[kreemeemunkee]

Yes Bank...i know ..........this kind of investigation is known a Witch Hunt.

[cee-dee]

They've arrested another one now:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20781149