OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[aernethril]

The facts are that currently the UK is required to pay  just over £350m per week, but due to a rebate, the actual figure paid is around £250m

That much is correct.

However, the rebate is negotiable and not part of any treaty whereas the the level of our gross contributions we pay to the EU is set.  Thus, the rebate is open to being reduced or removed at any point and what is already known (as this is set in the pipeline) is that by 2020 our contributions will increase (due to more poorer countries joining) and the rebate will have to be renegotiated, if it's still available.

We then receive some of what we contribute back for such things as farming subsidies, regional developments etc, but overall I think that this is around less than half of our net contribution.

It goes on giving other countries subsidies and grants for development in order to theoritically increase trading areas and regional stability, as well as giving a few very rich and powerful bureaucratic eejits unknown sums and expenses.

That's the nice idea - but the other reality is that the UK is a net importer of EU goods, so taking that into consideration, there is a hidden amount of wealth going to other EU countries who sell us their goods.

[cee-dee]

That's not quite what I said in #299, I said:-

In several news items and campaign reports I've seen a claim that Britain pays £350 million per week in to the EU. Others claim that figure is wrong because the Iron Lady negotiated a rebate so after the rebate we pay in only £280 million per week. Right or wrong, either figure's a lot of money.

I was looking at numerous sites and they all gave similar (nay, identical?) figures and I'd not seen your lower figure of £250 million anywhere.

Also, I said (#299) that you can't keep paying in to something forever but getting back more than you pay in but nowhere have I seen this explained away. Does no-one question this or pick up on it?

What's the point of paying in to something without getting any benefit back? Before anyone claims we get back more than that in trade, well, all the EU countries could scrap ALL the payments and just carry on trading so what's the point of all these payments if they only go to pay for the monstrous bureaucratic machine of the EU? In the end, it only seems to be fuelling an ever increasing stream of rules and regulatins which far from encouraging trade, actually make it more difficult and expensive for firms to do their trading.

[aernethril]

Sorry - the £250 was my brain typo and I didn't change the timeframe of payment,  but I did answer some of your other questions as to what it is for.

The figure of £350m is more or less about right but is rounded down, according to Michael Gove, for convenience

As for the bit where you keep saying:

You can't pay in to something forever and forever get back more than you're paying in.

Well, certainly that is my understanding of what happens with the poorer countries in an attempt to help them improve their trading and social status to bring them up to a par with most of the rest of the EU.  They currently receive more than they pay in.

And I don't think we can easily find out if there is a time limit for their improvement and I don't think it's at all clear that the lesson of bringing Greece into the EU when it was patently unready and unfit, has been learned.

But the UK has never got back as much, let alone more than it has paid in - hence the threats from certain politicians in France and Germany because we are something of a cash cow to the EU.  They haven't got the cajones to say that without the UK, which is one of the top trading nations in the world (just one of our achievement), the EU is going to be up the proverbial.

The benefit we are supposed to get from paying in more than we get out in £ for £ terms is that we have 'unfettered' access to selling within the EU - in theory.  But nothing is that clear cut.  We get to pay to be a member of an ever less exclusive club that is becoming more of an rowdy tavern by the day.

You will have to find out about Trade Agreements for yourself because I can't give you a short explanation.  Here's something to get you going

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade_area

Suggest also listening to what not just politicians have to say, but other experts in various fields who can give unbiased and hard factual information.

[artful_dodgings]

Suggested reading.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546775/Osborne-s-3million-migrant-clanger-Treasury-s-doom-l...

* waits for the complaints that it's from the 'Wail' *

Geo Osborne must have the silliest looking face in Westminster, and there are some horrors.

[evoman3957]

I'll grant you, I bet he was a good " Fag " in Public School.

[upthecreekyetagain]

As I understand it the idea that Greece was unprepared to enter the EU is a myth - at least in financial terms.

What happened to Greece is is something I believe the EU as a community should be ashamed of.  At the time of entry its economy was in surplus and their national debt was non-existent. 

Once in the EU it was 'pressurised' to modernise its industry and infrastructure - German and French banks fell over themselves to lend Greece vast sums which ended in Greece's debt rising to unsustainable levels alongside a budget deficit and a level of consumer debt not previously seen in Greece. 

When the banking crisis occurred and Europe went into recession Greece could no longer service its debts resulting in what we've all heard about, a financial bail out for Greece.  Greece didn't see any of that money though, it all went to the French and German banks - so it wasn't really a bail out for Greece but indirectly for the banks - the conditions attached to that bail out fell though on the Greek population in terms of austerity measures and not where it really should have fallen, on Germany and France - Greece will for decades continue to support the banks of two of the richest nations in Europe.

As regards to EU contributions the highest contributor in percentage terms, (contribution as a percentage of gross national income), of all the nations in the EU is Greece!

[cee-dee]

Oh heck, I've got to say "well done" for that contribution.

In a roundabout way though, it's also an excellent illustration of what I said in #299 about:-  "It seems to me like one of those scams where "investors" pay in and those "in" first get what seems like vey high returns but those in late lose all their money when it's discovered that the promoters were using the payments from later investors to pay the high returns to those who "got in on the ground floor" after creaming off loadsa money for themselves."

[cee-dee]

If you're thinking about reasons to choose between in or out, choose carefully because the EU will eventually require us the scrap acres, the pint, the mile, along with the Troy ounce.

They've already forced litres, grams and kilograms, centimetres and metres on us so what's next on the road to making us conform to the European way?

Kids know little or nothing about yards, feet and inches and even some adults can't think in ounces, pounds and stones and don't mention Fahrenheit if you're talking temperature.

The EU way seems to be to regulate everything but you can do more or less anything but only if you do it the EU way, that is, conforming to their regulations. If no regulation exists, don't worry, they'll soon create one!

[upthecreekyetagain]

Actually I see all that as a very good reason to stay in the EU

4-0 to the Albion

[cee-dee]

So you're in favour of Britain losing those traditional things?

[aernethril]

But isn't that the point - it was doing ok in it's own way but the greed or mad power rush to bring it on board when it was not in a position to cope with what it would mean to be a part of the EU is potentially about to become a repeat with the other countries in the pipeline to be brought on board?

They are not in any position to be a part of the EU and cope with loans etc in this mad push to assimilate and modernise.

[aernethril]

Some things have served their purpose but no longer work in a more technically led society.

The old imperial measurements, for example, are not just harder to work with, I believe they cannot work in many scientific applications.

Personally, I've found it much easier to work with metric units, but whether we stay in or out, we won't be going back to using the old measurements officially.

[evoman3957]

Isn't it funny how subtlety and deviousness, always triumphs where brute force failed; a fact not easily forgotten by the Greeks.......just ask the Trojans.

[bridget-jones-diary]

The fact that 40 odd years after we joined we still use feet and inches..pints...etc just goes to show how entrenched we are...De Gaulle said we shouldn't join the Common Market because we will never be Europeans...he was right!

i think we will be much better off OUT..whatever the BBC Government propaganda machine says. Already we have the scaremongering...unlike the Scottish referendum where they left the banking 'bombshell' till the last minute...that, as the Scots now realise was utter twaddle!

As for the NHS scares...back in the '60s ...LONG BEFORE we joined the Common Market...my aunt was matron of a large psychiatric hospital. She told me that they were fast tracking visas for nurses and doctors from Africa, Phillipines etc. THAT has never changed. Most of our doctors and nurses who migrated here have come from OUTSIDE the EU...that is unlikely to change. If we need staff from within Europe there's nothing to stop them from being fast tracked either. No-one will be 'obliged' to leave straightaway if we vote out anyway! Besides...WHY are we not training more nurses in UK?

We import more to the EU more than we export. They need us more than we need them...as the recents ads on  the telly have said...Canada, China, NZ, Australia etc etc...all WANT to trade with us! There are great opportunities out there. What holds us back at the moment is EU red tape...it's a bureaucratic nightmare. It's not straightforward importing or exporting...even within the EU. As for most of us selling on eBay...we MIGHT have to put a CN22 on our EU parcels...and our customers MIGHT have to pay taxes...it doesn't deter many outside the EU...postage is a different matter...that has always been the biggest deterrent! In fact we could score there...as VAT wouldn't apply to EU prices.....

Jobs will be protected if we stay in...ok...REALLY? What about the jobs we've lost as a result of our being in...have they forgotten the Bombardier fiasco where we had to accept a lower bid from outside UK to build trains...to the detriment of UK jobs! What about MODE 4 agreements too...like the one with India where they can bring staff into UK for 6 months to do highly skilled (debatable!) work...for under minimum wage and without employment laws because they are technically employed in India. The trade off BTW was a stipulation that the price for generic drugs manufactured for the 3rd world must be increased to allow for EU drug giants like Glaxo Smithkline 'compete' ....so now you know why you need to raise more money from Comic Relief and Children in Need...the Red Cross/Crescent, Medicins sans frontier and other charities are having to pay through the nose for AIDS and cancer victims in Africa ...and whilst the Indian billionaires rub their hands in glee...their poorest people are also suffering! 

Of course there has been a monumental shift in heavy industry...we've no coal mines....steel is finished...car manufacture is shrinking...ship building is negligable. Then there's the potteries...not making pots. In my hometown of Portsmouth we've lost BAe shipbuilding and our dockyard is almost non existent. Our naval ships are being built piecemeal around the dockyards that are left..whilst MOD ships are being built in S Korea. All of this has come about since we have been in the EU. I'm not saying it's the cause...but it hasn't prevented monumental change in Britains manufacturing heartland. Germany has prospered mind you...

As as for Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian workers. Most of the jobs they are employed in are not even advertised here. South Coast Shipping only employs Poles... Many construction contractors only employ Eastern Europeans on minimum wage...but they buy up houses to give them a cheap roof over their heads...charge minimal rent whilst their employees claim benefits for their families at home ...the houses are investments so they can't lose! Our young families struggling with high rents or massive mortgages can't compete against them. If you google jobs in Bognor...most hairdressers, shop work etc stipulate fluent Polish or Russian! 

They say security will be compromised...cobblers...we are members of NATO and Interpol..we have one of the very best security services in the world...never mind the EU...they rely more on us than we do on them...they NEED to share Intel with us ...and us being in or out makes no difference. If their handling of the refugee crisis is anything to go by...they will need us more than ever!

As  for the freedom of travel...as a travel agent before we joined the Common market I can assure everyone that flashing your passport at airports, ports and frontiers is ridiculously easy! As it is TRY and go to Europe without a passport...you won't get back to UK very easily. Basically, there will be very little change! The only downside is if you want to bring van loads of fags and booze back with you....not that our Customs will let you keep them unless you can convince them it's for your personal use!

HOWEVER I do think we ought to be given an alternative to IN or OUT...we know that the planet of London wants to be IN....so turn it into a kind of 'Singapore' ...we have a natural frontier in the M25... The companies that want to remain in the EU can register themselves in London 'zone'...the rest of us can be British and without the EU. We could then establish ourself as a 'Free Trade Area' ...attracting business worldwide (subject to quotas)...and the EU will be clamouring to join US! 

Anyway...I just hope people will see all the doom and gloom doled out by the government propaganda machine for what it is! Smoke and mirrors! If you haven't benefitted in the last 40 odd years...what makes you think that will change? I for one do not want to see us as part of a Franco-German centric federal state.

[upthecreekyetagain]

We import more to the EU more than we export. They need us more than we need them...as the recents ads on  the telly have said...Canada, China, NZ, Australia etc etc...all WANT to trade with us!

IF our exports to the EU consisted entirely of physical goods then I don't think that there could be any argument against that statement - fortunately or unfortunately, (depending on your point of view), that is not the case - a large proportion of our exports are in the service industries - even excluding banking we are a large net exporter to the EU.

Accountancy, business consulting, architectural, PR, recruiting, training, IT support, legal services, research services into the EU have all continued to grow - these are services that aren't easily replaced by new export markets.  They also depend to a large extent on being very much a part of the EU.

Common EU standards, no employment restrictions and ease of travel all combine to make Europe a unique market.

If you google jobs in Bognor...most hairdressers, shop work etc stipulate fluent Polish or Russian! 

I did, couldn't find any with that stipulation

[fallen-archie]

It's always the others! Why is it we are so Gullible? Why can we not get the truth, the facts, the story no one wants us to hear?
Call me old fashioned but both sides exude certainty in their arguments, so how come each has formed certainty when all we get is waffle, froth, misinformation and bias?

[upthecreekyetagain]

I agree Archie - on the face of it an in/out vote is a simple choice - in reality it is almost impossible to make an informed decision.

You can make the choice at a number of levels - what you think will be best for you, best for your family, best for the country.

How can you decide what will be best for you, I know I am considerably better off than I was before we entered the EU but would I have been even better off if we hadn't joined - not got the faintest idea.

Likewise with my siblings and our offspring - none have complained over the decades about the EU holding them back or disadvantaging them.

'Best for the country', that is where the fight between the sides seems to be taking place - exports/regulations/sovereignty/taxes/immigration.  As much as I am interested in what will/could/might happen in the future what would help far more in deciding my vote would be an empirical explanation of how each of those factors have advantaged or disadvantaged the majority in the UK over the last 40 years and how changing the status quo would help or hinder them in the future.

As far as I am aware membership of the EU has had very little impact on me or mine - I'd be very interested in hearing how others have suffered or gained directly due to the UK being a member of the EU and again how a change in EU membership would affect them.  There are very passionate advocates on both sides of the argument but I never hear how membership has specifically affected them and brought them to their point of view.

[******lynda******]

I was in both farming and fishing industries. Both were ruined by the EU. The govt gave more fishing quota by a long mile to foreign boats that to uk fisherman. We had to throw good fish back, so the country could import what we needed.
We weren't fully self sufficient in milk production, but we had to drastically cut (split infinitive, sorry) our production and close creameries so we could import French over production.

The amount of red tape now. Have you tried opening a bank account, recently?

[aernethril]

I think the red tape on finance is here to stay and will increase due to money laundering/ funding crime and terrorism etc (back to the Panama Papers revelations).

But again, it's all inconsistent and those with money have ways of bypassing the red tape that beleauges the rest of us.

[aernethril]

I think you've answered your own question, just the same as so many others.

eg, when we've discussed on eBay whether sellers should leave feedback first, after payment, after a buyer seems happy but hasn't left feedback, after the buyer leaves it.

The thing is  you cannot go back and try again.

Certainly as Lynda has pointed out, some industries have suffered such as fishing which was quite disgraceful in how we just rolled over and gave more rights to other countries to over fish in the seas around the UK.

Another one which cropped up on R4 some weeks back over a power station that was forced to close early (and I do apologise for not remembering all the details) but the essence was that jobs were lost overnight when they did not have to be.

It's also worth remembering that the UK is one of the few 'countries' that are compliant with the EU regulations whereas so many other countries regularly flout them - employment law being one huge area.

But all the rows about the Leave campaign giving no facts and figures are just deliberately diverting from the issue that very few facts or figures can be given other than those we know for sure about immigration rights , increased contributions.........

We have no idea where the EU will end up going because so much is being forced through on an ad hoc basis.

Take the issue with Turkey - was there a debate in the EU parliament to agree to that dictator's bullying and demands for automatic entry?  No - yet here we are with a fait acomplis which we have no control over.

Look back just 3 or 4 years even - could anyone predict we'd be facing this unprecedended level of migration, both war-driven and economic opportunists?

If we leave, there will need to be some serious changes but that doesn't mean that it will be bad or even have to be that difficult.  The difficulties will come from how those in Goverment choose to behave and conduct themselves in taking the UK forward and who they will choose to make pay for their loss of face.

I wonder why dave isn't going on a tour of the US to lecture the yanks on how they should be voting and threaten them with the dire consequences of voting for that idiot with the dead rodent on his head.