OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[fallen-archie]

Wherever one goes there are people who believe they are more intelligent, more worldy and better placed to arrive at the correct decision on how others should behave, be governed or react. Humility is a great word yet few know how to practise it. 

HUMILITY

The quality of having a modest or low view of one's importance.

"he needs the humility to accept that their way may be better"

[upthecreekyetagain]

That certainly applies when stating an opinion.

If I say, "I believe that the Moon is made of green cheese", then it would be perfectly reasonable to expect someone to refute that argument by producing evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand when stating a 'fact' auch as -

"The Moon is made of green cheese", then it is up to me to provide evidence to support my statement otherwise it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to say, "prove it and if you can't then you are wrong".

[cee-dee]

I believe you like an argument.

[cee-dee]

You're speaking from experience of course?

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@fallen-archie wrote:

Wherever one goes there are people who believe they are more intelligent, more worldy and better placed to arrive at the correct decision on how others should behave, be governed or react. Humility is a great word yet few know how to practise it. 

HUMILITY

The quality of having a modest or low view of one's importance.

"he needs the humility to accept that their way may be better"

---

The problem with that type of post is the inherent irony in it.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@cee-dee wrote:

I believe you like an argument.

---

Perfectly true - I believe your statement, "When they're found here, they'll be easier to send back without the EU 'freedom of movement' malarky", has no basis in fact.

[artful_dodgings]

Well apparently Ozzy Osborne has wheeled out his big gun today, in the form of a weighty tome from the Treasury, that's as thick as a church doorstep, and which no doubt he expects everyone to read.

Even the BBC reporter said that it contained an equation that would give Einstein palpitations.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/18/eu-referendum-osborne-treasury-brexit-will...

[fallen-archie]

Well that was unexpected  

[evoman3957]

Lately, the argument / debate about whether to stay in or come out ( according to the TV / Media ) seems to be based on who you " Trust ".........the " In " group or the " Out " group.  Considering it's a well know fact, that you can always tell when a Politician is lying.........their Lips move......that redundant option isn't going to help anybody.  So, it brings us down to logic / gut feeling / belief / experience etc. etc. Please don't bend my Ear, if the figures are out by one or two.......here or there; because it's the wider point I'm trying to get across.  If there are 27 ( or so ) Countries in the EU and double / Treble or quadruple  that amount, in the rest of the World, why is a trade liaison with the EU the only option........there's loads of other countries out there that we can trade with. In fact, while our growth is so modest and that of the rest of the EU, is so abysmal; all the excepted emerging economies ( whose growth figures are so envied ) are NOT part of the EU.......so why can't we trade with them.  I fully appreciate that many countries haven't got anything to offer ( that's why most of their people want to come here ) but what about the USA, China, Brazil, India, Australia, New Zealand and many more.  As most of the " Tat " we buy here comes from China anyway, why do we need the EU to negotiate that deal, on our behalf, I think we could manage that by ourselves.........we've got them building our future Nuclear Power Stations anyway........we did that bit of dealing without any help.  Think logically.......we are being corralled, guided ( like a blind Man ), coerced, by people with their own motives ( self gratifying as well ) into doing something, which we are being told is for our own good.  I suspect similar to all those Catholic Priest, who told the Children; as they were abusing them......" This is for your own good ".......and if you don't do what I say; you'll go to Hell.  Come on, we've heard it all before; even if it's a variation of a theme, it's being played on the same old Violin. The two biggest Wars in history, were started by the same Country and in Europe.  Easter European countries are not adverse to a bit of genocide, well proven in history and if you give somebody earning £50 a week, a green light to go to another country to earn £300 a week..........well what do you think will happen.  So all this " Tosh " about the EU keeping all it's members together and avoiding conflicts..........that's fine as long as they're all getting what they want.  See what happens if THAT changes.

[astrologica]

You leave them there until they come clean and say where they came from. They know where they came from. Arriving having destroyed their paperwork is deceitful and dishonest. If we are to have more citizens, it would be better to have honest ones, rather than those who employ every criminal, deceitful trick in the book to get here. 

But in fact..we do not need even one more immigrant..This country is stretched to the limit, and employing austerity measures. One look at the Mediterranean should tell us that we need to be in control of our borders. The whole human demographic is changing at the moment, and the numbers of migrants will increase dramatically over the summer months, even more so in the coming years. Frau Merkel caused untold damage inviting over a million to Europe..and now there are tensions there. The new wave of migrants are not from Syria, they are from North Africa. We cannot save the world. For every one that we allow in, a thousand will follow. Like Evo, I am sick of the bleeding hearts who are afraid that the rest of the world won't like them....we need to toughen up now...and leave that poisonous club.

So it's OUT for me...bring it on.

[astrologica]

Archie.....what does sexual exclusivity have to do with the matter in discussion? The only people who need worry about their sexuality regarding the subject are gay people, who could possibly find themselves disadvantaged and possibly persecuted if the Muslim population of this country increased significantly. I do see the connection you were trying to make within the quote, but being intelligent does not guarantee sexual exclusivity.

[astrologica]

And...when dealing with this question, I would say that a hefty dose of common sense will serve more than intelligence. My old Welsh Mam had more common sense than she had intelligence...she wasn't educated..but I know how she would vote if she were still here!

[upthecreekyetagain]

All very well, (and costly) - but what if they tell you where they came from and why and you don't believe them - or even more likely the country they say they came from refuse to believe them and won't take them back.

There are so many countries creating refugees that it is almost impossible to disprove any individual isn't amongst them.

The idea of locking up children indefinitely isn't very appealing either.

[astrologica]

All very good reasons for making sure that they don't enter this country illegally in the first place.

[upthecreekyetagain]

On that we can agree which is why I think the 'stay' campaign 'win' on the question of illegal immigration.

[artful_dodgings]

How do you arrive at that conclusion Creeky, their modus operandi isn't proving very effectful up to press ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

If we leave the EU then it is likely that border checks will take place on the Channel crossings in the UK rather than on the French mainland as they are at present - what incentive will there be for the French to stop immigrants in Calais climbing on board lorries bound for the UK.

There would also be the problem of securing the Irish border - whilst Eire is not a  member of the Schengen agreement EU nationals do have the right of entry - currently we effectively have an open border with Southern Ireland which would have to be made secure.  Add to that the possibility/probability of Scotland gaining independence and joining the EU and we have yet another border to secure. 

Resources of the border forces are already stretched - increasing their workload even further is unlikely to help in the task of keeping out illegal immigrants - well not as far as I can see.

[upthecreekyetagain]

So far on this EU referendum my perceptions are -

On the economy - the stay campaign are the most persuasive

On reducing European immigration - the leave campaign are clear winners

On border control and illegal immigration - the stay campaign has the upper hand

On trade - I'm split, imports no problem if we leave, probably be cheaper - exports not so easy, physical goods shouldn't be a problem but service items could well be affected by a withdrawal from the EU.

On health - neither side really have a decisive argument - certainly if we leave there will be fewer patients, on the other hand the withdrawal of mutual health agreements would make visits to Europe more expensive.

On law making - the leave campaign has a clear advantage as the UK would have the right to make whatever laws it likes - the stay campaign argue however that trade agreements would mean that we would still have to accept EU directives and that in any case many directives advantage UK citizens - I perceive this argument as a draw.

Discussing this subject in the pub the other night I was asked how the UK being a member of the EU directly affected me - I was at a loss to answer.  Maybe we are paying a bit more in VAT which affects spending power and in the past membership made it easier for me to travel to the continent on business - apart from that I can't think of anything.  Health services and schools are better than they were in the 70s as is transport and the leisure industry.  They might have been better still had we not been in the EU but how can I tell?

[cee-dee]

Putting figures on anything leads to questions as to how the figures were worked out, who compiled the figures, are they right or wrong and so it goes on depending on which "side" you are on.

In several news items and campaign reports I've seen a claim that Britain pays £350 million per week in to the EU. Others claim that figure is wrong because the Iron Lady negotiated a rebate so after the rebate we pay in only £280 million per week. Right or wrong, either figure's a lot of money.

Now what is that money for? Why are we paying it? When the issue of "The Common Market" first came up, the idea was for some sort of trade agreement? I asked "if it's just some sort of trade agreement, why do you have to pay anything in?"  What's it for? Where does the money go?

You can't pay in to something forever and forever get back more than you're paying in. It seems to me like one of those scams where "investors" pay in and those "in" first get what seems like vey high returns but those in late lose all their money when it's discovered that the promoters were using the payments from later investors to pay the high returns to those who "got in on the ground floor" after creaming off loadsa money for themselves.

[fallen-archie]

Depending on which "side"you are on.

You said it.

People take a stand then pride stops them from looking at it rationally. For some there is no other way.