OK, in or out?

[cee-dee]

How about an RT poll?

No reasons, no argument, no debate just a straightforward IN or OUT.

Me? OUT.

[goldenwonders]

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@5129frederick wrote:

Point taken.  I've re-read your post and my answer and have since climbed down off the wall.  If I've over reacted - my cat shot out of the room I apologise and stand corrected.  My error.  Ok? 

Hello Frederick, no need to apologise, the problem with these boards is, as I keep saying we don't always read things as they are said or meant and then we all (including myself) go off on one!

EU membership really concerns me - I'm concerned for everyone who lives in the UK! By staying in the EU people have far more to lose than they realise! Voters are being manipulated by lies, twisted figures and use of the fear factor.

In my opinion for the last 20 years successive Governments have been getting far more wrong than right! So if anyone agrees with me on that - why on earth would I accept that now they have it right on staying in the EU????

Frederick - Glad you are a No.

[0125arwen]

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@suzieseaside wrote:

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@goldenwonders wrote:

Suzie that appears to be yet another example of thinking you know what something says - but not actually reading what something says.

Reading the poster it says "it will allow 29 million Roumanians and Bulgarians to come to the UK" ....NOT that 29 million will come.

They can arrive whenever they want, this year, next year, whenever! And we can't stop them!

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@0125arwen wrote:
Farage never said 29 million would come, only dense people don't know the difference between would and could.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read and quoted what Peter Wilding said.  I take little notice of what the beer-swilling Farage says about anything not least because of his shamefully low attendance and voting record at the European Parliament.  I have read that in 2014 he predicted there would be 5,000 a week coming in from those countries, but that didn't happen.

It's blinding obvious that 29 million wouldn't come, even over several years - that would increase our population of 65 million by almost a half again. There would be no space for them let alone work for that huge number of people so it wouldn't happen.  I also seriously doubt that if that ridiculous number of people did want to come here that the EU could make us take them as it is clearly unfeasible for a country of our size.

Regardless of could or would (and ignoring the unnecessary insult), in my opinion that UKIP poster was clearly designed to prey on people's fears about runaway immigration.  Deliberate scaremongering IMO for political gain, and it is misleading saying will allow rather than could allow.

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I read and quoted what Peter Wilding said. wehich is a proven lie.

It's blinding obvious that 29 million wouldn't come, farage never said they would he said they could, do you not see the difference?

seriously doubt that if that ridiculous number of people did want to come here that the EU could make us take them as it is clearly unfeasible for a country of our size.there is not a thing the uk could do to stop them.

in my opinion that UKIP poster was clearly designed to prey on people's fears about runaway immigration. by stating facts, unlike labour when poland joined and they said around 13000 would come, shortly before close to a million came.

and it is misleading saying will allow rather than could allow. There is no misleading because there is no could allow only a does allow.

[0125arwen]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10429901/Migrants-add-5.8m-to-bulging-Britain.htm...

[suzieseaside]

Whatever.

Yes I see the difference.  Fgs I see that it says will allow, not that they would all come, and I said why it was blindingly obvious that 29 million wouldn't come. I can't be bothered with the nit-picking. 

It's my opinion that the poster is designed to prey on people's fears. It's my opinion, not yours, but I am entitled to it.

[0125arwen]

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@suzieseaside wrote:

Whatever.

Yes I see the difference.  Fgs I see that it says will allow, not that they would all come, and I said why it was blindingly obvious that 29 million wouldn't come. I can't be bothered with the nit-picking. 

It's my opinion that the poster is designed to prey on people's fears. It's my opinion, not yours, but I am entitled to it.

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Yes dear, you are.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@evoman3957 wrote:

Well I can answer one of those for you for sure, having spoken to my Daughter ( who, as you know, works for the Border force on the other side of the Channel ). Despite my wish to leave the EU, I'll be honest and tell you that she told me it would be " Chaos " as far as Calais / Dover is concerned. ALL border force personnel would be brought out of France back to this side, where the checks would be carried out. The tourists could be checked, similar to airport checks, where passports, Visas & the like are checked. The difference is, in airports, we are on foot when going through passport control........these tourists etc. will have vehicles to contend with. The main problem will be the Freight ( on which most illegal immigrants get in ) hundreds of lorries will have to be stacked / parked, while checks are carried out. NOW all illegal immigrants found will be on British soil and their applications for asylum will ALL have to be processed HERE, they'll have to be held somewhere; while that process runs its course and the unsuccessful ones will have to be deported..........as they can't even deport the hundreds waiting to be deported already, that might be a problem. The same kind of border controls will have to be put in place, in every major Port in the Country and on the border with Scotland ( if they hold another referendum for independence and win )..........otherwise illegal immigrants could get into Scotland and then cross the border into England.

There, that answers one of your questions ( about borders )..........I bet your happy now........not !!

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It's not ionly our seaport border controls that would be in chaos - or even the possibility of the Scottish border - what will happen in Northern Ireland?

So many thousands work on the opposite side of the border to which they live.  What has effectively been an open border even before the EU would have to have controls enforced, either that or border controls between NI and the rest of the UK.

[goldenwonders]

 I read and quoted what Peter Wilding said.  I take little notice of what the beer-swilling Farage says about anything not least because of his shamefully low attendance and voting record at the European Parliament.  I have read that in 2014 he predicted there would be 5,000 a week coming in from those countries, but that didn't happen.

It's blinding obvious that 29 million wouldn't come, even over several years - that would increase our population of 65 million by almost a half again. There would be no space for them let alone work for that huge number of people so it wouldn't happen.  I also seriously doubt that if that ridiculous number of people did want to come here that the EU could make us take them as it is clearly unfeasible for a country of our size.

Regardless of could or would (and ignoring the unnecessary insult), in my opinion that UKIP poster was clearly designed to prey on people's fears about runaway immigration.  Deliberate scaremongering IMO for political gain, and it is misleading saying will allow rather than could allow.

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Suzie, with one breath you say its blindingly obvious that 29 million would not come... and then say its a disgrace to prey on peoples fears of 29 million coming ???

I'm afraid you cannot argue with the fact that.....     29 million could come if they chose to!

Then the quote you gave...  not your fault it was actually a lie that Peter Wilding had told! You were easily mislead as were many others who I could say, were disgracefully mislead by a liar!  But you'd rather accept a liar than someone who gave you a fact?

I don't particularly like Nigel Farage, I don't like Michael Gove and I think Boris is a great laugh! However despite my reservations they don't tell me obvious lies! (watch someone come up with one now!) Farage has not been wrong about the influx of migrants - infact I got my figures wrong earlier...

I should have said the number of Bulgarian and Roumanian migrants was 44,000 and 170,000 respectively in 2015 an increase from 22,000 and 63,000 in 2014 - so the numbers of Roumanian and Bulgarian migrants coming after 2014 more than doubled! So Farage was not wrong was he? They did come and are continuing to come! If we stay in the EU Turkey is on the horizon and coming soon to a centre near you... and me!

[jd.linklater]

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@suzieseaside wrote:

Whatever.

Yes I see the difference.  Fgs I see that it says will allow, not that they would all come, and I said why it was blindingly obvious that 29 million wouldn't come. I can't be bothered with the nit-picking. 

It's my opinion that the poster is designed to prey on people's fears. It's my opinion, not yours, but I am entitled to it.

---

Of course that's what it's designed for and there will be a whole lot more similar stuff to look forward to over the coming months from both sides of the divide. Best not to listen to any of them. Like evoman and others have said,  do your own research and make your decision based on facts not hearsay or political spin. In other words treat the issue as if it were a general election, assume that they'll tell you anything you want to hear to secure votes. If you take anything they say at face value you're in for a big dissapointment. Has it ever been any different?

[upthecreekyetagain]

The problem is that whilst we can get 'facts' about being a member of the EU how do we get facts about leaving the EU - the only source we have is 'informed opinion' fro both side of the argument - differentiating between those with a 'scare' slant and thosy with a 'rosy tint' is easy - finding unbiased opinion isfar more difficult.

If politicians are genuinely trying to do the best for the country, (as most would claim), then why can't those on either side of the argument at least acknowledge and address concerns from the other side rather than continuously tring to make out that an IN vote or an OUT vote will be catastrophic.

It won't be the end of life as we know it if we leave nor if we stay in.  Either way we will manage.

[0125arwen]

Because some sides are refused access to the facts.
By cameron.

[mikes*corvettes]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

our national security, our internal security,

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Put it this way imagine what will happen when Turkey and Ukraine join the EU.

Out of 178 countries with the top spot being held by Denmark as the least corrupt with a score of 9.3/10 for Public Sector workers in the 2010 Corruption Perceptions Index.

Turkey was ranked 56th with a score of 4.4/10 and Ukraine was ranked 134th with a score of 2.4/10.

With Turkey having links to ISIS and Ukraine being like the wild west in regards to crime, these two countries with this high level of corrupt public sector workers who handle passport and id processing which allow the bearer to travel freely between EU countries.

How safe will we be then, if we stay in ?

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2010/results

[suzieseaside]

---

---

Suzie, with one breath you say its blindingly obvious that 29 million would not come... and then say its a disgrace to prey on peoples fears of 29 million coming ???

I'm afraid you cannot argue with the fact that.....     29 million could come if they chose to!

Then the quote you gave...  not your fault it was actually a lie that Peter Wilding had told! You were easily mislead as were many others who I could say, were disgracefully mislead by a liar!  But you'd rather accept a liar than someone who gave you a fact?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh.  Yes, I can say that it's blindingly obvious (to me) that 29 million wouldn't come. And I can say it's a disgrace to prey on people's fears about runaway immigration. I did not say it's a disgrace to prey on peoples fears of 29 million coming.  You are the one who remarked about not reading what was written, but you have changed my words!.

It may be blindingly obvious to me, but maybe it isn't for some people who have no idea what the population is, or those that believe everything they read in the Sun, Mirror or Daily Mail.

It may be a fact that 29 million could come if they chose to, but in practice it is hardly likely is it, for reasons I gave.

[suzieseaside]

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@jd.linklater wrote:

---

Of course that's what it's designed for and there will be a whole lot more similar stuff to look forward to over the coming months from both sides of the divide. Best not to listen to any of them. Like evoman and others have said,  do your own research and make your decision based on facts not hearsay or political spin. In other words treat the issue as if it were a general election, assume that they'll tell you anything you want to hear to secure votes. If you take anything they say at face value you're in for a big dissapointment. Has it ever been any different?

---

Hi jd, I have said (post 27 in creeky's thread on 'what would make you change your mind') that there are several aspects of staying or leaving the EU that I will be trying to find out about before I make my decision, such as trade, economy, jobs, national security etc.

I also appreciate that it will be harder to know the implications of leaving as it will be a bit of a leap in the dark compared to what we know about being in the EU.

I don't trust politicians so I'm hoping there will be some reasoned and informative articles written by experts with no political ambition.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Isn't there a hint in the title of that index? - 'perception'?

As such isn't using this as an argument for leaving the EU just an example of what I was talking about as regards bias in an argument leading to 'scare tactics'.

The same index could be used by either side by suggesting that the entry of Turkey into the EU would reduce the overall perception of corruption in the EU because they have a better rating than either Greece or Italy.

[mikes*corvettes]

Have you spent any significant time in that part of that world and I don't mean a fortnights holiday and can you give an informed opinion on how things work, because I have and I do.

Inflation is set to go through the roof in Ukraine this year and they are already set to get $1.5bn handout from the EU, where is this money coming from,some from us I take it ? so please tell me what they are going to bring to the table.

I notice you once again skirt round the issue with Turkey and their links with terrorism, but answer another question how can one future full member of the EU illegally occupy by force a third of another EU country ?

[upthecreekyetagain]

The answer to your first part is no I haven't spent time in Turkey nor Ukraine other than as a tourist.

No I can't give an informed opinion nor have I claimed to be able to do so.

If as you say inflation is set to go through the roof then they won't meet the criteria to become an EU member state.

There is much general talk about Turkey and links to terrorism as there is about their efforts to fight Kurdish terrorist actions both within their borders and neighbouring states - perhaps you could be a little more specific as to what you are alluding to.

Finally I'm confused by your final statement - which country is the 'future full member' you refer to?

[astrologica]

'They won't meet the criteria to become a member state'......are you joking Creeks? Remember when Greece joined? They didn't meet the criteria either, but the EU twisted the figures, bent the rules and moved the goalposts to drag them in.And just look at Greece now..on its knees and being blamed for allowing all those poor migrants landing on its shores. They will do exactly the same with Turkey.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Why?

[astrologica]

Because the EU project is steamrolling ahead. They will allow nothing to stand in their way in achieving their aims. They have a monetary crisis and run out of money...just print more. Countries are too poor to join...change the rules, fudge the accounts. This has been going on since the moment the whole EU idea was formulated, and they are not going to stop now. The next stage of expansion includes Turkey and some North African countries. Do you want us to be part of that? I definitely don't. Our Island status is a blessing and we should treasure it, just as we did before this crazy project came into being.

[john.b74]

I remember when they said , that joining the EU would mean that all prices would be the same all over Europe. Look at prices now.