Douglas Carswell's defection to Ukip.

[merehazle]

The Clacton MP's decision to join Nigel Farage is like the rest of his career, principled and decent writes Peter Oborne - Daily Telegraph's chief political commentator.

Well it certainly makes for some exitement at last...as the Tory whips scramble to secure party against further departures after the Eurosceptic MP triggers Clacton  byelection. 

And he is honourable and decent enough to deflect on principle.

Eight Tory MP's are reported to be talking to Ukip about deflection?  (we will see) .....

[merehazle]

Ahhhhh... thank you. Is that what it is  A  ''RIGGED'' definition. I will remember that

Now look at your KUDOS.  You see I don't hold grudges..

Have a nice day.

[lambsy_uk]

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@merehazle wrote:

Ahhhhh... thank you. Is that what it is  A  ''RIGGED'' definition. I will remember that

Now look at your KUDOS.  You see I don't hold grudges..

Have a nice day.

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I did see the Kudos and I thank you, I don't hold grudges either, neither do I troll, but I do know how to argue; with sources and reasoning.

If you have a suggestion for a different definition of Trolling then please offer it.

Have an even better day! xxx

[merehazle]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

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@merehazle wrote:

Ahhhhh... thank you. Is that what it is  A  ''RIGGED'' definition. I will remember that

Now look at your KUDOS.  You see I don't hold grudges..

Have a nice day.

---

I did see the Kudos and I thank you, I don't hold grudges either, neither do I troll, but I do know how to argue; with sources and reasoning.

If you have a suggestion for a different definition of Trolling then please offer it.

Have an even better day! xxx

---

Well... without going into exact details obviously, because names would need to be mentioned. I'm sure like many others we have seen someone following certain posters and no matter what they say, and how trivail, it is finding any excuse to try to embarass them.

There is also some effort made which you and others may not see where mutipal I D's come out too support an attack. And disappear immediately. I think that's TROLLING. If I cant say troll, at least let me say very, very NASTY.

Now if you want more I'm afraid I haven't time to search back, and back, and back like some to try to discredit someone. But some have lambsy, NOT you. But somehow I think you might have seen that.  Now if they go to that trouble just to try to hurt someone then to me that's TROLLING.   (we even see someone relating UKIP voters to worms, and morons) :manwink:

TROLLING can be in the mix of comments that others may not see. Matters that have been going on for sometime.

And I have seen some hurt really badly in my time on here. Some I know were unwell at the time. 

Have an even better, better day.     Thank you. But that is what I offer in the bigger picture. 

Back this evening. Well.... maybe.   

[0125arwen]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

I've already covered the top ten as someone else had the decency to post a link earlier. If you can provide a source for the remainder I'll have a look!

But here's something for you; "We will end the storage of internet and email records without good reason."

I'd suggest they believe they have good reason!!!!!!!!!!

Next!

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Ah right, you're not interested.

[lambsy_uk]

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@merehazle wrote:

---

Well... without going into exact details obviously, because names would need to be mentioned. I'm sure like many others we have seen someone following certain posters and no matter what they say, and how trivail, it is finding any excuse to try to embarass them.

There is also some effort made which you and others may not see where mutipal I D's come out too support an attack. And disappear immediately. I think that's TROLLING. If I cant say troll, at least let me say very, very NASTY.

Now if you want more I'm afraid I haven't time to search back, and back, and back like some to try to discredit someone. But some have lambsy, NOT you. But somehow I think you might have seen that.  Now if they go to that trouble just to try to hurt someone then to me that's TROLLING.   (we even see someone relating UKIP voters to worms, and morons) :manwink:

TROLLING can be in the mix of comments that others may not see. Matters that have been going on for sometime.

And I have seen some hurt really badly in my time on here. Some I know were unwell at the time. 

Have an even better, better day.     Thank you. But that is what I offer in the bigger picture. 

Back this evening. Well.... maybe.   

---

I will readily admit that I don't notice these signs of trolling in the way you do, I do however appreciate that calling someone a worm or *bleep* is way out of order! Certainly some of the activity you've described can be considered to be trolling. I have not noticed anyone following anyone else around but I know that does not mean it doesn't happen. If anyone is a victim of trolling they have my support!

[lambsy_uk]

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@0125arwen wrote:

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

I've already covered the top ten as someone else had the decency to post a link earlier. If you can provide a source for the remainder I'll have a look!

But here's something for you; "We will end the storage of internet and email records without good reason."

I'd suggest they believe they have good reason!!!!!!!!!!

Next!

---

Ah right, you're not interested.

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Not interested in what?

[danielworgandesigns]

Congratulations to Douglas Carswell and UKIP in general.
Onwards and upwards 

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@lambsy_uk wrote:

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

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It's easy to try and use semantics to disguise what are essentially broken promises - all a manifesto is, is a list of 'plans' a party intends to put into force should they gain power - by your reasoning not carrying out any of those plans is not deception - i.e. lying!

Then there is means testing - this covers a whole range of different scenarios, you outline one, benefit eligibility based on income is another - again just semantics.

Oh - and what happenned to the last item on that list - bonuses for bankers?

As for what was in the manifesto then I'm not sure why that matters - by your reasoning it wouldn't matter if policies weren't carried out - after all they're only 'aims'

manifesto (n) - a public declaration of policy and aims, especially one issued before an election by a political party or candidate.

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In you first line you say they were promises and your second line says they are plans and intentions; you finally call them aims!

By your own definition a manifesto contains no promises! If one doesn't want an argument about semantics I'd suggest they don't use semantics for their own purposes!

People may think it is quite clever to find where a government has fallen short of its aims and intentions and claim they are Broken Promises; because this sounds so much better and serves their purpose far more than attaching an accurate description such as un-met plans!!!

It's a typical tabloid approach, don't tell the plain truth when you can mislead, influence and imply with the use of semantics!

I'm not so easily led; I'm not that stupid!!!

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Lambsy

That is precisely the point I was trying to make - whatever a politician says or writes down in terms of policy can be taken as a promise or pledge, normally with the intention of gaining votes or can be described by others when the policies don't come to fruition as excusable because they were only aims or circumstances have changed.

Essentially it does come down to semantics or the meaning of a particular statement.  When the leader of a political party announces on national television that, "We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT", just days before a General Election then I take the meaning of that statement as a promise not to raise VAT - I certainly consider it a "broken promise", (or at the very least deception), when the Chancellor announces just 7 weeks after the General Election that VAT will be increased.

You can argue semantically that it is possible plans changed in less than two months over something so basic - personally I consider that a broken promise.

[bookhunter2007]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

I can't believe that many UKIP supporters have actually read UKIP's last national manifesto.

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This lot certainly haven't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iXPMN_ys8w

http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/10/passionate-ukip-supporter-cant-name-a-single-thing-the-party-stand-for...

[danielworgandesigns]

Yes,similar to the ignorance shown by the buffoon who has aspirations of leading our country...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2783513/Boris-Johnson-fails-Tory-candidate-Clacton-battle-UK...

[fallen-archie]

The Electorate love a Buffoon, politics is riddled with them , for a relatively small party UKIP leads the way with up and coming Buffoons so potentially could do well at the next election. In the time until then we shall see whether we actually debate the issues or blame everything on Europe and immigration.

[danielworgandesigns]

Wonderful piece of editing on that youtube clip about UKIP parking outside the kebab shop and the jamaican take away....they didn't show you that Douglas carswell has his UKIP office literally next door,that was clever cutting that out,and there before a couple of those businesses.
It seems that many people have a hard time accepting the fact that many in this country want change.It is ok to aim a reporter at pensioners,but lets not forget that these pensioners have gone through the years of CONS & LAB governments continually F....... G up the economy,of course who in their right mind would not want a change in direction if you have seen continuous governments gradually erode your way of life.
Do any CONS supporters actually feel better off now? 
Do any Lab supporters remember how much better off they felt under Blair/Brown

Well lets be honest,if so many of the people actually felt they were better off under Cons or Lab there just wouldn't be the opportunity for a party such as UKIP to storm through and be shown so much support.No matter that a few pensioners interviewed displayed little knowledge of a relatively new parties policies,i mean come on i am sure we could target a few supporters of all parties who know bugger all about their respective parties policies,it's just a cheap shot to do so though isn't it?

The fact remains,whether people display high degrees of intelligence or are considered by those same people to be gormless,UKIP is spreading excitement amongst people who have just got fed up with the same old stuff that has continuously been spouted out by the big two yet have failed on so many fronts to deliver to the people who they make promises to. 

[bookhunter2007]

That's logical. So if someone doesn't like a sandwich filled with Red Salmon or Blue tuna, the next best filling is a sandwich filled with excrement from a Purple puffer fish?

As Joe pointed out earlier, the only "anti establishment Party" really are The Greens. But I suppose Caroline Lucas missed a trick by not getting a Swastika tattoo a few years ago...

On another note signtique, if you do feel the urge to attend a UKIP meeting, it may be an idea to tell the wife to stay at home:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-29039503

[danielworgandesigns]

Fortunately i firmly believe that the vast majority of people at a UKIP meeting,of which we have been,along with the vast majority of people who vote Cons,Lab,Lib and any main stream party are decent enough people who do not need to stoop that low.
However there will always be an element,no matter what political persuasion,who show total lack of respect and produce ignorant foul mouthed rants at others who dont share their views,in actual fact an open forum such as this also has it's fair share as well.
I suggest if your best rhetoric is the use of purple puffer fish excrement or the old favourite of suggestions that UKIP are a party akin to the Nazi's then your best bet may be to move along and let the grown ups who have some form of respect for others views to discuss openly.  

[bookhunter2007]

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@signtique wrote:

suggestions that UKIP are a party akin to the Nazi's

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Yes, comparisons to a demagogue and his "People's Army" who scapegoat foreigners, disabled people, & other minority groups in an economic downturn are way off the mark...

UKIP's European allies I believe?

http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123316

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/09/16/how_a_former_neo_nazi_party_became_sweden_s_third_lar...

[danielworgandesigns]

Well done on that comeback,it's been used by more intellectual specimens than you,and people don't fall for it any longer.

You will no doubt continue to scream at the top of your voice about how we all hate foreigners,disabled people & other minority groups,but i along with many other millions will basically take your vile filth that you spout with a pinch of salt.
People,such as yourself,who spout this rubbish are no longer listened to with any form of respect,people cannot be persuaded any more by the ignorant claims that run rife amongst people like yourself who cannot accept that others have valid arguments and concerns over how our country is run. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

Douglas Carswell's voting record though is a matter of record

Voted strongly for reducing housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have excess bedrooms

Voted very strongly against raising welfare benefits at least in line with prices

Voted strongly against paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability

Voted strongly for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits

Voted strongly against spending public money to create guaranteed jobs for young people who have spent a long time unemployed

Don't get me wrong - I support a lot of his views but I'm not naive enough to believe that suggestions that the party which has welcomed him with open arms doesn't also support his stance on the subject of those on working benefits, the jobless and the disabled.

[bookhunter2007]

It's that evidence thing again.

You can froth all you like Signtiqe, the fact is your Purple Puffer Fish are in bed with a group of Hitler fanboys.

If you're all fine and dandy with that, then that's your call.

[0125arwen]

Yet labour has it's share of racists and that hardly gets a mention.
Must depend who you say racist things about.

[bookhunter2007]

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@0125arwen wrote:
Yet labour has it's share of racists and that hardly gets a mention.
Must depend who you say racist things about.

---

I'm sure all parties have some racist supporters and representatives, However, for such a relatively small party compared to the others, the number of racist candidates & supporters does seem alarmingly high for UKIP.  Even down to the leader:

From current rumblings, UKIP scapegoat & blame "the immigrants", whereas Labour wish to clampdown on rogue employers who exploit immigrants.  Take so-called "Health tourism". UKIP make alot of hullabaloo about it, yet it's proportional costs to the NHS budget are very minimal.

It's often spouted that immigrants come to "soft touch" Britain for the benefits - despite evidence to the contrary. Surely the focus should be on those who exploit "soft touch" employment laws and the enforcement of them?