28-02-2020 2:32 PM
Reading and listening to the news reports about the spread of the virus, the common denominator seems to be travel?
Surely if travel was halted until the incidences of the virus have "died down", the spread to other countries wouldn't happen?
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
02-04-2020 4:04 PM
All those in denial about the origin of some of these diseases should read this article properly:-
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/disease-x-virus-hunters/
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
02-04-2020 4:22 PM
Toi111da
I find it hard to see your point, perhaps that’s because you want to play Devil’s advocate in your posts.
I think the more concerning thing for me is the issue of when this started in this country - time they told us the truth!
How can you expect them to know when this started in UK, they only have the first reported cases to go on? Yes, there is some anecdotal evidence and models taking into account the delay in symptoms showing themselves and the time lag before the first recorded death that suggest it was here in the middle of January. It’s not feasible that the entire country could have been tested before any symptoms showed up. What is it that concerns you? It would make no difference to how we need to behave now. More testing would help scientists understand the virus but it wouldn’t change the fact that we need to be cautious.
Secondly I worry when I'm told first, it lives on surfaces for 1 day, then 3 days, then 9 days then I read that the virus was alive 17 days after the passengers left the Diamond Princess - this was then denied and they said 24 hours - Time to make their minds up.
Today - having previously been told there was no point wearing a mask - they are changing their minds... we should wear masks!
What we should expect is a sensible concensus of opinion - better to say nothing than to guess or change your mind almost daily. If you tell people something you must speak with consistency not jump from from one opinion to another, changing your mind - or no one will ever believe (or have confidence) in what you say!
How can you expect a consensus of opinion when new information is coming to light?
Personally, I prefer to know about new information. No-one could know how long the virus stays on different surfaces until they tested it. Something researchers have been doing along with the distance that can be travelled by a virus when sneezing. Information about wearing masks may change because of new information coming to light. Masks are not easy to wear properly, but hey, wear one if you want to, that’s if you can get some, but I prefer that the frontline NHS workers had them while there is a shortage.
The loss of life is terrible, BUT how many people died with Covid 19 and how many died because of it?
Also how many people died that DID NOT KNOW THEY HAD UNDERLYING HEALTH CONCERNS?
I'm guessing that post mortems are not being done at the moment - so can you really take it as accurate what we are being told?
I also read that ONS said that during January-February 2019 MORE people died than have died this year - so what do we make of that?
What worries me is I don't think they have a clue.... or do they??
And your point is? How would accurate information help you personally? Do you want to rely on the ONS figures on deaths last year and say what? That we might as well carry on as usual, socialise, and never mind the deaths because they are less than last year and the dead had health problems anyway?? I suppose if you knew that all people who died had underlying health concerns and you haven’t you might feel less anxious, but they can’t preform autopsies on everyone just to relieve the anxiety of healthy people. Anxiety is just something we have to learn to deal with however difficult.
I’m sure you don’t think that but I’m trying to understand why not knowing all these things accurately would worry you. I’m sure we are not being deliberately misled. Why would any Government want to see such a massive hit to the economy when they are fighting a global pandemic in the best way they know how given the knowledge they have. I’m glad that they (with the exception of some like Bolsonaro, and who knows what Trump might do in coming weeks) are showing concern for public health over the economy.
Whether people with Covid19 died because of it or not, or whether they knew they had underlying health concerns, it will be pretty clear that those who couldn’t breathe and were on ventilators died from pneumonia. It is a fact that this virus interacts differently with individual’s immune systems and resistance to the virus, from no symptoms to causing severe and fatal pneumonia.
More testing would help epidemiologists understand the virus, its current distribution and transmission, but I don’t think it should change how we have been told to behave to avoid swamping the NHS with too many cases at once. That could well happen anyway before things get better.
The main facts we need to know remain the same: stay in and away from other people as much as you can, apart from the essential workers who can’t work from home.
Even if people are tested and shown to have antibodies to the virus, that is no guarantee that they would be safe either themselves or in contact with others. The scientists still don’t know how long they last (yes more testing over time might show that, but it will take time for that information to be known). It might be a short time which would be very worrying and cause another spike in illness and deaths, so the way we need to behave remains the same. Even if they do last a long time, how can you police people who are not immune from being out among those who are? First we have to see a consistent drop in infection and deaths and then watch very carefully if restrictions are relaxed.
02-04-2020 8:19 PM
@l111da wrote:"And yet they see fit to open those busy markets, knowing that SARs and Covid19 have come from them, and knowing that the new rules cannot easily be reinforced".
You keep quoting Sars has having come from the market and there is no evidence to support that - unless you can point me to it? If you check out both WHO and even the NHS it has never been confirmed that it came from a market, neither has it been confirmed which animal it came from. 'Perhaps bats' is the strongest link you will find on the WHO.
It is also now being said (New Scientist) Growing evidence suggests the covid-19 outbreak may not have started at Wuhan’s Huanan Seafood Market in December after all.
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532764-000-the-hunt-for-patient-zero-where-did-the-coronavi...
However the interesting thing about 'Coronavirus SARS' are the similarities with Covid 19 - it killed people mainly over the age of 65, the symptoms are the same, fever, headaches, shortness of breath due to lack of oxygen - at this point it usually became fatal. It was an airborne disease caught by inhaling water droplets from someone who was already infected - and 10 years later there is no cure... and from what I can see no one is looking!
After several months since an initial animal to human transmission, the original strain and the reservoir it came from becomes harder to find, so it's unlikely to be found conclusively in the case of Covid19 or previous zoonotic viruses. A fact which must suit the Chinese and other nations that have wet markets or trade in and handle wildlife. Conclusive proof of the precise origin or not, these viruses (and others that have caused serious illness) jumped to humans from animals.
Whether these nasty viruses originated in bats, pangolins, civets, snakes, turtles, monkeys or whatever wildlife (or even camels, pigs or chickens), and whether there is an intermediate host or not, it does not alter the possibility of a dire consequence from inter-species transmission. The precise host animal origin is perhaps less relevant than the knowledge that viruses can jump from animals to people where there is opportunity. When and where such animals and people are in close proximity, and where humans invade their habitats provides such an opportunity.
These markets put people and animals in close proximity and cleanliness and sanitation are not paramount, so they constitute a risk for a virus outbreak.
You wanted evidence: I would say that there IS evidence that SARs came from bats (possibly Horseshoe bats) and may well have come from market trading in such animals:
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/060101_batsars
Whether conclusive proof of a market origin is available or not I don't see how anyone could deny that these places do not increase the risk.
02-04-2020 8:31 PM - edited 02-04-2020 8:32 PM
My link at #141 seems to be clear that it's bats that start it off and they probably either bite another animal or transfer their virus some other way, the virus then mutating until humans get in on the act?
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
02-04-2020 11:05 PM
I think this explains the possible scenarios quite well ceedee:
As it says in the article, IF the virus didn't become so virulent and dangerous to humans until after it transferred into humans but then mutated into one that was better adapted to human hosts, then the chances of another outbreak of this particular virus from bats to humans is much less likely than in the other scenario below.
IF the latest coronavirus evolved into its current state (i.e. ability to infect humans without mutations) while it was in the animal (say bats for the sake of argument) then it could jump into humans again. That's my worry about these markets because there could be more re-infections of the same potentially deadly virus. I don't think it is yet known exactly how the coronavirus was transmitted and in what form, but if it was 'human-ready' then the Chinese may be in for unwanted re-infections of the same virus.
Either way, there have been nasty zoonotic viruses in the past and there will be more in the future. Hopefully not another pandemic for a long time but after this one perhaps we may at least be better prepared.
03-04-2020 10:54 PM
03-04-2020 11:17 PM
07-04-2020 6:46 AM
07-04-2020 8:57 AM
07-04-2020 9:41 AM
Sounds like it's going to be touch and go? It just shows that everyone's different when it comes to how the body deals with the virus. Poor Boris must have the gene structure that lets the virus take hold?
Old JC will be thanking his lucky stars he didn't have to deal with any of this and is well out of the picture now?
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
07-04-2020 2:25 PM
I doubt JC could deal with a single bat in a belfry, he would just have an ineffectual whinge about it.
I see that Donald Duck is interfering again, claiming to be sending in the firms he 'knows' with untested drugs. Then I suppose he would want to claim he saved the UK PM. Send his wishes by all means but I wish he would butt out of things that are not his business.
07-04-2020 5:51 PM
07-04-2020 11:42 PM
07-04-2020 11:49 PM
08-04-2020 4:24 AM
10-04-2020 10:13 AM
I see that there have been lots of scam websites set up with the sole intention of cashing in on the covid-19 situation and defrauding people and organisations with "offers" of various madical equipment from "testing kits" through to face masks & etc, things that'll never arrive if ordered and paid for.
Now, shouldn't it be made MUCH more difficult to set up bank accounts by making banks liable for fraudulent accounts?
Frausters couldn't operate without some sort of bank account could they?
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
12-04-2020 7:58 PM
I agree with both decisions but why is it okay for both the PM and the Queen to travel to and stay at their second homes but not okay for the rest of us?
12-04-2020 9:37 PM
12-04-2020 10:26 PM
Possibly, yet there again the Scottish chief medical officer was more or less forced to resign for going to her country residence.
12-04-2020 10:55 PM