Simple Delivery - how safe is it to go with eBay's recommendation? Feeling rather nervous...

[irt303]

Despite my reservations, I am currently listing an item for sale with Simple Delivery. I'm very nervous about it, and I haven't even completed the listing yet! But if I wait for eBay to significantly improve Simple Delivery (or make it optional, or abolish it entirely), I could spend the rest of my days in an awful limbo. I'm desperate to have a clear-out, and, unless I switch to another platform (which I'm reluctant to do), the reality is that I will have to engage with Simple Delivery whether I like it or not.

Anyway...

My packed item measures 42cm x 37cm x 13cm, and weighs about 2.97kg.

eBay's recommended option is 'Small parcel 45cm x 35cm x 16cm, up to 1kg'.

So my item is a couple of cm over one of the dimensions, and almost 2kg over the weight of eBay's recommendation.

A more appropriate option that appears in the listing is 'Medium parcel 61cm x 46cm x 46cm, up to 10kg'.

Is it totally safe for me to go with eBay's recommendation, or - since I am aware that one of the dimensions for 'Small parcel' is over the maximum, and that the weight is almost three times greater - should I select the 'Medium parcel' option?

I'm currently inclined to change from eBay's recommendation to the 'Medium parcel' option. It costs a few pounds more, which is a small sum in view of the price I'll be listing at (£399.99 including BPF). I'd happily pay the extra if I knew that doing so would prevent the problems that might occur if I went along with eBay's suggestion - but I also understand that problems can occur if you deviate from the recommendation!

I know it sounds like I've more or less answered my own question, but I'd welcome advice from sellers who have used Simple Delivery to send items that exceed the dimensions and/or weight in eBay's recommendation. Did you send with the recommended option nevertheless (and, if so, did this come back to bite you?), or did you select an option more appropriate to your item (and did doing so result in issues you wouldn't have had if you'd followed eBay's recommendation)?

I know from reading the forums that, in some cases, sellers have sent items using an eBay-recommended label which would normally (were it not for Simple Delivery's 'special conditions') be refused as not sufficently covering the size and/or weight of the item, but actually was accepted, saving them or the buyer money. But when it comes to my own item - considering the item value and my trepidation regarding Simple Delivery - I find myself in a crisis of confidence!

I've recently made my first listing and sale in ages, a DVD for under a tenner, which I was able to send with custom postage (yes! One more stamp used...). This has given me the confidence and motivation (I won't go so far as to say "enthusiasm") to list more, but the prospect of using Simple Delivery is daunting. Perhaps I should be starting with a much lower-priced item, but I do have my reasons.

P.S. I had considered not using the Simple Delivery label, and instead sending with RM Special Delivery, but I'm not sure if it's worth doing that, considering Simple Delivery insures against loss or damage in transit for up to £750. Other than requiring a signature on delivery (which itself can be a problem for buyers who are out at work or whatever when delivery is attempted), I can't see that it has any benefit over Simple Delivery. Is my understanding of this matter correct?

[irt303]

Thank you for posting.

What you've said is in stark opposition to what another regular poster has advised!

If I over-rule it, I definitely won't get it wrong, at least in this particular instance. I've checked, double-checked, and triple-checked the dimensions and weight. My item definitely measures and weighs more than the 'Small parcel' limits, but is absolutely within the 'Medium parcel' limits.

It feels like a bit of a gamble, and it's not one I'd like to take with this item. I'm taking my first tentative steps back into selling, any problem of a certain magnitude would likely see me scurrying back to the safety of the bunker, so I need to play things as safely as possible rather than take a chance just to save a few nuggets.

[honeymonster007]

Okies. get the hint

tuff crowd

[irt303]

Cheers for the reply. Seeing your username always makes me think of those Sugar Puffs adverts! And James Bond, of course (currently watching the lot in chronological order - I'm only up to From Russia With Love)!

I'm a bit confused by your reply. Did you mean to say "... some valuables aren't covered by Special Delivery" or did you indeed mean "... some valuables aren't covered by Simple Delivery"?

I don't think I need to use RM Special Delivery anyway, as Simple Delivery covers items up to £750.

The item I'm selling is a computer, so hopefully not something on an exclusion list (apart from Evri, maybe, but I've de-selected them).

[edwardian-dreams]

All I meant was I wondered why eBay didn’t cover jewellery 

[edwardian-dreams]

Yes, I know the right size and weight. eBay has some kind of 'learning' algorithm, whereas I have a brain, eyes, a tape measure and scales.

🤣🤣🤣

🤣🤣🤣🤣

thanks for the Chuckle, indeed 

[edwardian-dreams]

No worries 

thanks for reply

you can only do what you feel is best for you 

I understand it might feel dishonest to purposely put through a bigger size even if eBay invited you to 

where’s Shakespeare when you need him 

[irt303]

Hi, I know you were replying to someone else, but your interpretation strikes me as being the most logical parsing of eBay's apparently contradictory statements.

A package with an 'underpaid' label would still be accepted and delivered - as long as it was within those maximum limits - but there's a possibility that the seller would be charged for under-declaring the size and/or weight, even if it was eBay's recommendation.

Yes, that would make sense. If only eBay made it clear. I don't suppose you'd consider applying for a job with their External Communications team? You'd be a darned sight better than the current lot!

[irt303]

Just when I think I've got a handle on things, you post that! Not that I'm ungrateful.

Interesting use of language when eBay says "If you think our recommended parcel size is incorrect..." It's a case of knowing, not thinking, that it is correct or not. Size and weight are objective and measurable.

And "Just go ahead and use the Simple Delivery label" almost sounds too casual! Just go ahead, it's fine, we'll look after you (unless we decide not to - please read the very small print in our T&Cs available from this dead link).

Incidentally, that looks like a pretty light penalty - just the postage difference (bringing it up to what you 'should' have paid in the first place) plus £1.00. I'm genuinely surprised it isn't more. However, although it isn't mentioned, I would assume that repeated instances would result in some kind of sanction.

Thanks for taking the time to post that screenshot.

[irt303]

Yes, the joys! What a way to spend a Saturday night!

[irt303]

Thanks, Wendy!

[irt303]

For some reason people always laugh when I say I have a brain...

[irt303]

Yes, at the end of the day (when all's said and done, etc.) sellers have to make their own choices (insofar as eBay will allow them to, that is). You can only seek so much advice and information from others before it's crunch time.

The general consensus is that I could legitimately go with eBay's recommended 'Small parcel' option, but I'm still somewhat uneasy about it, so will probably change it despite the apparent protection that using their recommendation affords. I acknowledge that I'm possibly being too cautious.

I'll consider the recommended option for another day and another (less expensive) item.

[edwardian-dreams]

I’m  laughing at  that Ai allegedly has a brain but will always be minus the eyes scales and tape measure too hahaha we’ll always be ahead of the monstrosity 

it doesn’t have a brain at all it’s a parrot , apologies to real parrots who are very clever and funny

at least the power of nature made them repeat your f offs not a piece of metal and some wannabe world ruler 

[irt303]

Sincere thanks to everyone who's replied - I'm sure many of you could be doing something better on a Saturday evening!

I've received enough replies now to help me settle on a decision, not that I can stop anyone from commenting further.

I'm reluctant to single out any one post to mark as a 'Solution', so I'll just order a round of virtual drinks for everyone!

[irt303]

Oh, I knew exactly what you meant, that was just me and my propensity for self-deprecation!

I just don't get the reverence for AI generally. Yes, it can out-compute a human brain by a factor of millions, and can achieve remarkable (and genuinely useful) results, e.g. its use in the medical sphere, but really it just means 'Incredibly Fast Computation', which isn't half as catchy.

A lot of it depends on one's interpretation of the word 'intelligence' - my personal definition is something that includes, but also goes way beyond, mere computational ability. 'Emotional intelligence' is an oft-cited example. A staunch behaviourist would take a different view, obviously, and I don't casually dismiss the position they take. Our emotions, despite having no physical existence, nevertheless occur as a result of physical activity in the brain - but can they really be 'reduced' to a series of tiny electrical impulses? That's one of the great mysteries of science, philosophy and psychology (or just 'life'). I've probably made it sound very boring indeed, but it's a source of endless fascination, and I love the fact that this supremely arrogant species to which I belong (indeed, it's the only species capable of arrogance - except for some cats, of course!) is still vexed by questions it will probably never be able to fully answer.

Obviously, there are different types and levels of AI. One would truly hope that the AI used for advanced medical diagnoses and predictions is not the same AI used by eBay when coming up with those wonderful item descriptions!

The notion of an AI program somehow developing self-awareness Skynet or The Matrix-style is as ludicrous as it is interesting. It's just advanced computation that relies on pure data to produce increasingly accurate results or predictions. And who or what determines what is 'accurate', humans or the program (which has no ability to conceptualize or to meaningfully self-analyze - since there is no 'self' to analyze)?

Maybe I'm the arrogant one for believing that AI, in spite of its amazing computational ability, is, and forever will be, inferior in many ways to even the simplest of human minds. Perhaps I'm in a battery pod even as I type, or a T-800 is headed my way to punish me for besmirching the good name of Skynet and to end my miserable, inferior human existence.

"That'll learn ya!"

[jckl1957]

Even cheap jewellery is not eligible for Simple Delivery.

It isn't that Simple Delivery doesn't cover jewellery, if you list jewellery or watches, then Simple Delivery is simply (sorry) not available.

I don't know why.

However, if you look at my listings - mainly jewellery - the postage is still my own choice and not Simple Delivery.

It is not only the items under £10 - I sold a watch and a couple of gold items this month and Simple Delivery was not an option.

[goodibags]

"Interesting use of language when eBay says "If you think our recommended parcel size is incorrect...""

It sounds almost like a direct challenge. Yes, post the correct way if you must, but if you post using our recommendation we also reserve the right to say you didn't tell us everything, etc.

Not sure how easy it is to prove anyone thought about anything but looks like you're damned if you do and also if you don't.

In your position I'd be tempted to let Ebay take the hit (send small parcel) based on the notion that SD is their thing to 'manage' (altho' they didn't do much actual 'managing' when the thing crashed last weekend). If AI has guessed wrong this time they'll know better the next time? SD only has to get it right most of the time.

Having said that, Ebay guessed my listings correctly, though they're mostly just tiny toy cars (100g in a small parcel).

[irt303]

Morning, goodibags!

True, I guess the AI needs wrong outcomes to 'learn from' as well as right ones. But surely, in order for that to work, both RM and Evri would need to report back to eBay, something along the lines of (to use my own item as an example): 'This item measured so and so, and weighed so and so, but the SD label was for an item that exceeded one [or two or three] dimension(s) and/or that weighed more.' That would need to be linked to the fact that the label was eBay's recommendation, and then the algorithm could incorporate that in order to 'learn' that, for an item similar in weight and size, it needs to recommend a different size/weight band.

I freely profess that I know next to nothing about the technicalities of programming, AI, algorithms and so on. But to my layman's eyes, that seems like a lot of 'work' for both the couriers (not forgetting that DHL will soon be added to the mix) and for eBay. None of it would even be necessary if eBay just ditched the word 'Recommended' and simply presented the options, and the onus would fully be on the seller to choose the appropriate size/weight band, with no risk of inadvertently choosing an unsuitable one just because eBay had, to all intents and purposes, said "Use this one". When it comes to size and weight, which are measurable, it shouldn't even be a case of a recommendation, it should be a binary case of suitable or unsuitable.

A couple of related points:

1 - Depending on how quickly the AI 'learns' which is the most suitable size/weight band to recommend, one of the current benefits of Simple Delivery - that sometimes buyers or sellers can save some money on postage because eBay's recommended label cost less than what a label would have cost outside of SD - could be quite short-lived.

2 - A factor that would presumably skew the AI's 'learning' re the recommended size/weight band is the fact that sellers pack items differently. If it only had to 'learn' about the sizes of different items (with no additional packaging), it would be much simpler, but it has to 'learn' about the sizes and weights of packed items. Take a book for example (and because things are complicated enough, we'll ignore the fact that books alone come in a wide variety of sizes and weights - the AI can hardly determine what 'a book' weighs, it would need data about specific books, and even the same 'book' can vary in size and weight depending on which edition it is and whether it is hardback or softback) - one seller might send a particular book in just a polybag, adding virtually nothing to the size and weight, whereas another seller might post a similar item (same edition of the same book) surrounded by two inches of bubblewrap.

It all looks like a right palaver just to train the AI to make 'correct' recommendations when recommendations are really not necessary to begin with!

I'm now thinking it might be prudent to screenshot the listing where eBay's 'RECOMMENDED' is displayed as proof, just in case.

It seems there are so many hoops to jump through now, we may as well be trained dolphins!

[goodibags]

Yes, for the moment it does look as if SD is mostly guesswork. But Ebay has been collecting data on many things (as wilfully supplied by its workers - that's us) for many years. Whether it's things that mostly weigh the same (like vinyl records) or those where it varies (like books). Exceptional items will always flummox it but those are pretty rare.

Ebay knows which tracked items have gone through and which have caused problems like additional costs, so will know which will need further work or info to be supplied.

Unlike couriers, Ebay also knows the value of the items being sent, so potentially which ones could be charged more for (almost the rate of 'Special Delivery' or possibly more than that).

And if some sellers tend to use more or heavier packaging than others you'd think SD may eventually be able to learn and predict which worker bee does what.

Ebay probably knows which users are more likely to absorb costs and which ones are happy to pay more. In theory SD postage could possibly vary depending on who's doing the listing or browsing? Can't get more dynamic than that?

It seems pretty much everything is customisable. It's only data and Ebay has an awful lot of that.

[irt303]

Great post!

Yes, maybe I'm underestimating the AI's ability to incorporate all these varying factors. Quite scary to think they could have such detailed 'profiles' of sellers, even down to which ones are more likely to absorb postage costs, which is a pretty simple and predictable data set based on their past sales 'behaviour'.

'Dynamic pricing' - ouch! As if things weren't complicated and inconsistent enough!