Signed for Delivery Item Allegedly Stolen

[i11uminatus]

Hi,

I am a private seller and recently sold a new, sealed MacBook Pro.

It was delivered by Special Delivery, and signed for.

60 hours later the buyer has asked for a refund 'Doesn't match description or photos:Hello, I purchase MacBook Pro I notice it was lighter than the usual. As I open it I realise it was only a cable inside without the actual device. Not sure if this is a transit error or seller mistake hence why I’m reaching out to clarify this. ' and sent a video showing an open and empty box.

Obviously the laptop was there when I sent it, and the weight is confirmed on the Post Office receipt.

The buyer has been v reluctant to communicate, has not replied to any of my questions (who signed for it, was the packaging damaged upon delivery etc), so I suspect it is a fraudulent claim.

I have submitted a claim to Royal Mail, but they take 30 days to respond.

What is my best course of action?

Please help( Thanks. 

[*vyolla*]

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@i11uminatus wrote:

I think you're going completely off-topic here... One gifted and sold,  2 bought instead,  and?.. I once bought 5 premium buggies to choose the right one for my son as every model seemed to be lacking in one thing or another, no adequate video reviews and comparisons were available, and there was no option to compare them at a store save for the 2 most popular ones - ended up with the one initially discarded completely based on specs alone. Same for wi-fi - it took me multiple tries, models and combinations  to get what I wanted, and then sold the rest, having bought some routers in multiples, since I needed 4 in total for my case. I have v specific requirements, even though some might change in the process, like the laptop colour here, and ready to go to lengths to meet them.

I think we need to get back on topic as any thread is potentially useful for future visitors.

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Because genuine Mac product isn't heavily discounted on BF (if it's the real deal) and I find that buying more top dollar MacBooks, not opening them but then looking at YouTube vids to decide which one to keep, and then listing the ones you don't want to keep on eBay instead of returning them to the store for a full refund is odd, I'm just trying to make some sense of all this.

The laptop colour shouldn't be a consideration because you know the colour before you buy.

It is on topic, because I'm wondering if, as you didn't open the MacBooks and could've returned them for a full refund, you did perhaps manage to end up with a package that didn't contain a MacBook. As I mentioned, Apple don't discount MacBooks at their retail outlets - where did you buy them from?

[lighting_signs_and_vintage]

This has just made me think of a potential hilarious YT series where experienced eBay sellers bait and prank fraudsters with bizarre packages of tut rather than the laptop or iphone they hoped to scam. Would love to see their faces... 'Aren't WE the scammers?!'.

[*vyolla*]

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@papua4 wrote:

I have just been scammed similar to this. It’s the refund scam! 
buyer said my item didn’t fit so would like to return. I said of course and accepted the return through eBay. A few days later a tracked envelope arrived with a pen in it? No tracking numbers on the envelope which was weird. A message from EBay saying my item has been returned and it’s time to refund! Suddenly I realised what had happened. I scanned the scan bar code thing on the envelope and it’s the same tracking number as on the returns on eBay! I reported it to EBay straight away and said I do not want to refund the buyer but they came back and said it’s been delivered so they refunded the buyer! Advised me as it’s an online sale they can’t see what was returned and suggest I have a contingency fund to cover returns! He has £185 of my money.. so cross. I reported him and he’s still on there! Also 1 week later someone else tried it. They loved the item and gutted as it was the wrong one, I said no problem I’ll exchange for the other correct one and guess what, they said no it’s fine, I’ll just have a refund please. but I refused the refund through eBay but said they could return it via the post office. They asked 3 times to return it through eBay but I said no, and I never heard anything else! 
there’s absolutely no protection for sellers. For this reason I’m closing my shop and sticking to Etsy! 
sorry this has happened to you too! 

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There is a process that you must follow if you have a buyer who you think may be up to something. 

You must never refuse an eBay not as described return else, as you've discovered, the buyer may end up with a full refund and the item.

[papua4]

I did follow the process. Reported it to eBay but they have done nothing! 
I accepted the return as I am meant to do and this happens. 
Is there anything I can do to avoided this happening in the future? I don’t think there is? EBay seem to be robots and not look at all the evidence! The return was for a 70cm tube and I received an envelope! I’ve got envelope with the tracking and cctv of the postwomen with it in her hand posting it through my letter box so clearly isn’t my item. The scammer is wrong and eBay for allowing these people to do it!

Can you tell I’m still really cross! 🤣

[*vyolla*]

The usual way foreward in these situations is that the seller accepts the return and gets their item back, if it isn’t their item they then immediately file a report with Actionfraud and get a reference number.

The seller then clicks the "Report a problem" link in the case, selects "Different item returned" as the reason and provides the Actionfraud reference number and report. This stops the automated returns process that would ultimately force the seller to issue a refund.

Then, someone at eBay reviews the case. As to what happens next depends on a few factors - if the buyer has done this before, if the seller is a long standing eBay member who's had no issues like this before etc.  We've seen a good few threads recently here in which the sellers have been in a similar scenario but have not lost out. 

Did you follow that process?

@papua4

[lucy_farmer]

'Is there anything I can do to avoided this happening in the future?'

I don't think so, no.

Ebay works and is designed to work for business sellers selling  lots of cheaper stuff who build in a 'cushion' in the price that covers the small amount of determined scammers.

Never put anything on ebay that you can't afford to lose.

(ebay runs all it's processes by computer. This computer system heavily favours the buyer in order to keep buyers *buying* : without that activity ebay would not exist.  ebay do not want to spend profits on human beings with common-sense and the power to make decicsions. Computer works 99% of the time and ebay don't really care if 1% of it's sellers give up in despair after dreadful experiences; there's always new sellers to take their place and try it out....)

[papua4]

Ah I see! Thank you for this. I did report it by clicking the button (item returned is different) but not the action fraud bit!
I’ll look into action fraud now. Very unlikely I’ll get my money back, so lesson learnt!
Thank you!

[papua4]

In that case EBay isn’t the place for my business which is a shame. 
I’m just another number! 

thanks for replying 

[i11uminatus]

Let's not go all conspiracy-mode.... The one I sold was purchased for me at Apple, while the ones I bought - at Very; they offered a one-use code 20% for new accounts, which I intended to use for new Asus routers and that happened to work on new Apple laptops too. 

And no, you are completely wrong in general - there have been plenty of discounts on new Apple products since BF, from Costco to official resellers like KRCS.

[lighting_signs_and_vintage]

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@i11uminatus wrote:

at Very; they offered a one-use code 20% for new accounts, [...] and that happened to work on new Apple laptops too. 

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Did you actually try the code, if true I just can't quite believe that wasn't a job-losing b*****k dropped there by an employee otherwise. All such codes usually exclude the usual-suspects.

[i11uminatus]

Getting back on the topic - ofc initially I did not completely discard the idea that the laptop has been stolen in transit to the buyer, though it seemed unlikely given Special Delivery. But the more situation developed, the more I could see the buyer refusing to communicate, the more I knew he was a scammer.  

It all culminated in him sending me a box of cereals in return.

[lighting_signs_and_vintage]

SD theft would be a POSYS level investigation, I'd rather have the CIA getting involved with my life 😱

[nat11911]

And I hope you've put the buyer on your blocked bidder list - he may not be able to resist that £3799 Mac as he had such an easy ride last time.

Blocked Bidder List:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/bmgt/BuyerBlock

[4_bathrooms]

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@nat11911 wrote:

And I hope you've put the buyer on your blocked bidder list - he may not be able to resist that £3799 Mac as he had such an easy ride last time.

I have no idea why the OP still has the other Macbook listed and hasn't returned it to the store for a full refund instead.

The OP still doesn't know whether they'll be out of pocket for the first Macbook they sold; that really should have been lesson enough. If anything goes awry with the sale of the second Macbook eBay may very well decide the OP is the problem after all and not the buyers that are involved. Two successive high-ticket sales resulting in INAD claims will almost certainly be reason enough for eBay to send one of their "risk to the eBay community" emails and slap the OP with a permanent selling restriction. For some reason that I absolutely cannot fathom the OP seems entirely willing to risk losing a few thousand pounds in the process of trying to flip their compulsive Black Friday purchases. 

[i11uminatus]

I am happy to report that the case has been resolved in my favour after the appeal. 

To sum up using helpful earlier posts with my additions, if you as a seller find yourself in similar situation:

1. It goes without saying all of the below is possible only if you used tracked postage with a proof of delivery.
2. Keep all the receipts and photo evidence.
3. Issue a returns label, and importantly without delay - this applies to all steps. If the buyer is a fraudster, trying to reason with him or find a solution is a waste of time. Waiting for too long at any step of the eBay process will result in eBay stepping in and complicating everything.
4. Submit a claim to Royal Mail - they take ages to respond.
5. When you receive whatever the buyer returns, make a video of unwrapping a sealed package, including the a clear view of the returns label.
6. File a report with Action Fraud - you will receive a reference number and best to print the report as PDF at the final step.
7. The eBay case will now have a "Report a problem" link - click on that and select "Returned a different item" or whatever the most suitable option is. Do not click the "Ask us to step in" link - it will specifically state "Report a problem".
8. Make sure you include the reference number from Action Fraud (this is crucial) in your eBay report and upload the PDF copy. 
9. Appeal if for some reason the above process initially fails.

Thanks to this community for helping out.

[lighting_signs_and_vintage]

10. Cancel your Royal Mail claim

[lighting_signs_and_vintage]

Although we probably couldn't do this as it would be at the expense of sellers, whenever this happens and someone on here asks for advice, would be interesting to see scammers reactions to a controlled experiment, with 2 arms;

Group 1.

Randomly allocated to either standard advice (accept immediate return, actionfraud etc...) or that you make no other contact with the seller than saying 'Thanks for your report, please standby as this is followed up by the local police force, additionally the Action Fraud reference is xxxxxx' and see the reaction.

Group 2 (very unlikely and would scupper ANY appeal to Actionfraud or ebay, but would be an interesting social experiment!)

Randomly allocated to either standard advice (accept immediate return, actionfraud etc...) or that you message back, admitting that you did send an empty box, because you are a scammer and this usually works, but you are clearly a smart person, please don't report me to ebay and we can share future profits, you'll send them an actual laptop / iphone real soon and send details so you can 'work together'.

[i11uminatus]

Yes, actually I wanted to follow up with a separate question) Royal Mail has just emailed me to provide further supporting evidence (all reasonable). How do I approach it?

1. Cancel the claim
2. Follow-up with the supporting evidence I have (i.e. AF file, what the 'buyer' sent back etc) - not for any compensation ofc, but for their investigation? Or since it has now been established it was a fraud (attempt), no need for it any more = option 1?

[lighting_signs_and_vintage]

There is no investigation to be made since there was no obvious compromise of the postal system. What's happened here is bog standard scammer MO. Cancel.

[i11uminatus]

Makes sense. Though it would be great if the buyer got on their black list or at least 'suspicious list' to avoid future cases.