Image theft & ripping off of other sellers listing photo images for resale

[retromania123-7]

I am a long time regular buyer and occasional seller on Ebay and collect rare photographic postcard and photograph images with a particular interest in cinema and retail history. There is another seller who regularly rips off these sorts of images from other sellers listing photos where he is able to do so, eg where no sellers watermark or single preventative "Do Not Copy" marking or similar has been added to part of the listing photo(s) that would make it hard to illegally download, something I'm regularly imploring other sellers to do. As a collector for more than 25 years and on Ebay on and off for over 20, I normally know which images are available or widely available, and which are the very rare and previously unseen, or even in some cases unique ones. This other rogue and dishonest seller has illegally copied about a dozen or so very rare postcard images that I've purchased over the last two years or so, then adds them to his site of around 60,000 images and starts selling cheap, low grade copies for £3.25 a pop, including one card, a very rare London Budgen shop front from 1898, that I paid around £200 for. A few weekdays after I bought it, thus guy started selling his cheap copies of the same. It's become such a problem and Ebay have had numerous reports about his constant image piracy, but seen to do nothing about him. He's apparently also been reported for ripping off images off of Ebay for resale to the postcard traders association by a number of aggreaved sellers who's unmarked cards listed for sale on Ebay he rips off and then resells on the site - amusingly watermarking them himself to prevent other people ripping off his already ripped off images. What is ebays policy towards people like this, and what as a community can we do to stamp out this very unfair practise and, hopefully, rid the site of people Like this? 

[myriad*seller]

When listing items on eBay you give eBay permission to add your photos to the eBay catalogue for use by all sellers

If you do not agree to this then you must close your account

You cannot specify "do not copy" on your photos as this breaches eBay terms and conditions which state that all images uploaded to their website can be added to the eBay catalogue for use by other sellers

This is the eBay policy; 

"What should I do if my image, video or text is being used by another seller?

When you create listings you give eBay and its customers permission, through our User Agreement, to use your images, videos and product details. Your content may be added to the eBay product catalogue, and may be used by other sellers in their eBay listings." 

[myriad*seller]

eBay product catalogue is here and contains images uploaded by sellers when listing which are all freely available for use by all sellers as per the terms and conditions all sellers agree to when listing items on eBay 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/listings/creating-managing-listings/listing-item-product-details-catalog... 

[myriad*seller]

Adding watermarks or text (including Do Not Copy) to any images is a breach of eBay policy

Photos must not contain text or watermarks 

What is the policy?

The following are not allowed:

• Photos that don't accurately represent the item
• Placeholder images used to convey messages
• Stock photos for used, damaged, or defective items
• Photos with added borders
• Photos with added text, artwork or marketing material
• Watermarks of any type, including those used for ownership attributions

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/listing-policies/picture-policy?id=4370

So you can report his listings for adding watermarks. 

[carbtec]

I have doubts that you own the copyright to the postcard you bought, however rare it is. But if you scan/copy that postcard & place that scanned image on ebay then you 'OWN' the copyright to that image & ebay has a dept' that will remove all unauthorised instances of that image after a very thorough probe.

One of my bestsellers images & description were lifted by our chinese cousins & because I could prove, with exif data, that I took those images & therefore I owned the copyright to them, ebay took down those listings where my images were being used without my permission.

So, despite the nonsense advice already given that ebay now owns the copyright to your images because you uploaded them to ebay & they can now distribute them willy nilly to any other seller, if you can prove you own the copyright to the image that is being used then ebay will remove them.

I also have doubts that you don't already know this . . . !

[btr.style]

You don't own the copyright and off the top of my head, images that old have likely become public domain which removed any copyright terms and so the images are allowed to be replicated in full for any purpose at all including commercially. 

[myriad*seller]

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@carbtec wrote:

I have doubts that you own the copyright to the postcard you bought, however rare it is. But if you scan/copy that postcard & place that scanned image on ebay then you 'OWN' the copyright to that image & ebay has a dept' that will remove all unauthorised instances of that image after a very thorough probe.

One of my bestsellers images & description were lifted by our chinese cousins & because I could prove, with exif data, that I took those images & therefore I owned the copyright to them, ebay took down those listings where my images were being used without my permission.

So, despite the nonsense advice already given that ebay now owns the copyright to your images because you uploaded them to ebay & they can now distribute them willy nilly to any other seller, if you can prove you own the copyright to the image that is being used then ebay will remove them.

I also have doubts that you don't already know this . . . !

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Have you read Section 9 of the User Agreement?

This is the contract you have agreed to..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behaviour-policies/user-agreement?id=4259#9.%20Content

"

9. Content

When providing us with content (including causing content to be posted using our Services), you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual (or for the duration of any copyright or other rights in such content), irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to use the content (including, without limitation, creating and using derivative works). We may in particular use your content, including any photographs you upload, for marketing and promotional purposes. This includes (i) offering it to other sellers to use in their listings, and (ii) displaying it to other eBay users as part of the browsing experience on eBay. We will also be allowed to keep a copy of any content (including photographs) you upload in our product catalogue for subsequent use for these purposes. You authorise us to exercise any and all copyright, trademark, publicity, database or other intellectual property rights you have in or to the content in any media known now or developed in the future for these purposes. Further, to the fullest extent permitted under applicable law, you waive your moral rights in the content and promise not to assert such rights or any other intellectual property rights you have in the content against us, our sublicensees or our assignees.

We may offer catalogue and/or product data (including images, descriptions and specifications) that are provided by third parties (including eBay users). You may use that content solely in your eBay listings during the time your listings are on eBay's sites. That permission is subject to modification or revocation at any time at eBay's sole discretion." 

[*knight-rider*]

The o.p is talking about someone useing other peoples images to sell, i assume,cheap prints, which is different to useing images in Ebays catalogue to sell an item. 

[carbtec]

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@myriad*seller wrote:

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Have you read Section 9 of the User Agreement?

This is the contract you have agreed to..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behaviour-policies/user-agreement?id=4259#9.%20Content

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Yes I have & it doesn't mean what most people think it does.

If you upload an image that you own the copyright on to ebay it does not give every other seller the legal right to use that image.

Vero WILL take down listings that use unauthorised copyrighted images & if you 'created' the image then you own the copyright.

[*vyolla*]

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@carbtec wrote:

I have doubts that you own the copyright to the postcard you bought, however rare it is. But if you scan/copy that postcard & place that scanned image on ebay then you 'OWN' the copyright to that image & ebay has a dept' that will remove all unauthorised instances of that image after a very thorough probe.

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No you don't.

If I scan a postcard I bought from a gallery of a Damien Hirst picture I don't then own the copyright to it.

If the image is out of copyright you can use it, but it doesn't make you the copyright owner.

[rigged_out]

You need to use the Vero system. It was explained at last Summer's eBay open.  If this is your trade then get a system set up and you can easily stop these other sellers. Ignore comments about ebay catalogue etc that's only for images they have included in the catalogue from a listing which is very rare. Also it will not override the Vero system. You just need to publish your images on a different site to ebay (like your own or another platform) before your listing. Then when they get copied you issue a vero against that seller.

[ett1954]

Copyright on an image last for seventy years from when it was originated.

More than ten years ago I used to receive requests from publishers to use some of my original WW2 photos in their books.  I always agreed providing the image was credited to me  in the publication.   For the last ten years I haven't received a single request - I presume the publishers know the copyright has expired and they just go ahead and use them.

[btr.style]

"You need to use the Vero system"

No they don't. They don't own the copyright. 

It's a postcard from the 1800's, they don't own the copyright, they didn't take the photo or have the copyright transferred to them. They've simply acquired it and the value is on the image being "rare", so they arent happy at it being copied because it could reduce the value of the item. People can use or replicate the image however they wish though as it would be public domain now and free to use (just like how steamboat Willie recently became public domain). 

If I wanted to (I don't), I could get that image now, print it off onto a load of cards and sell it in a shop and there wouldn't be a thing anyone could do. 

[carbtec]

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@*vyolla* wrote:

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@carbtec wrote:

I have doubts that you own the copyright to the postcard you bought, however rare it is. But if you scan/copy that postcard & place that scanned image on ebay then you 'OWN' the copyright to that image & ebay has a dept' that will remove all unauthorised instances of that image after a very thorough probe.

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No you don't.

If I scan a postcard I bought from a gallery of a Damien Hirst picture I don't then own the copyright to it.

If the image is out of copyright you can use it, but it doesn't make you the copyright owner.

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You misunderstand the nature of a copyrighted image.

If I buy a postcard of a Damien Hurst picture then I don't own the copyright to either the postcard or the Damien Hurst picture & I would be in no doubt that me copying it for resale would likely get me into trouble.

If I wanted to sell my postcard of a Damien Hurst picture, then I would scan it to create an image of the postcard of a Damien Hurst picture. I created that image so I own the copyright to that image. If I upload that image in order to sell my postcard of a Damien Hurst picture then despite what everyone 'thinks' about ebays T&C's it does not give everyone else the legal right to download that image & use it to resell.

Every image that appears on your screen has been downloaded to your device & you are not breaking any laws when this happens. If you want to start using those images for your own benefit then you need to learn a little about copyright law, how it applies & to what it applies to.

[*vyolla*]

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@carbtec wrote:

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@*vyolla* wrote:

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@carbtec wrote:

I have doubts that you own the copyright to the postcard you bought, however rare it is. But if you scan/copy that postcard & place that scanned image on ebay then you 'OWN' the copyright to that image & ebay has a dept' that will remove all unauthorised instances of that image after a very thorough probe.

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No you don't.

If I scan a postcard I bought from a gallery of a Damien Hirst picture I don't then own the copyright to it.

If the image is out of copyright you can use it, but it doesn't make you the copyright owner.

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You misunderstand the nature of a copyrighted image.

If I buy a postcard of a Damien Hurst picture then I don't own the copyright to either the postcard or the Damien Hurst picture & I would be in no doubt that me copying it for resale would likely get me into trouble.

If I wanted to sell my postcard of a Damien Hurst picture, then I would scan it to create an image of the postcard of a Damien Hurst picture. I created that image so I own the copyright to that image. If I upload that image in order to sell my postcard of a Damien Hurst picture then despite what everyone 'thinks' about ebays T&C's it does not give everyone else the legal right to download that image & use it to resell.

Every image that appears on your screen has been downloaded to your device & you are not breaking any laws when this happens. If you want to start using those images for your own benefit then you need to learn a little about copyright law, how it applies & to what it applies to.

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I think I know enough about copyright, thanks. Your photo/scan of the Damien Hirst postcard would be the exact same as any other photo/scan of the same postcard, what on earth would be the point of trying to claim ownership of that? I think we're going off at a bit of a silly tangent here.

Back to the opening question - it's unlikey that the image would be in eBay's photo library because there'd be no code to link it to. So, technically the photo that the seller has taken would be owned by them, but as the photo is of an out of copyright image it's a moot point. 

[4_bathrooms]

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@ett1954 wrote:

Copyright on an image last for seventy years from when it was originated.

 It actually lasts 70 years from the author's death. 

[rigged_out]

They aren't talking about the an image within their image. They want to protect the images used in their listing. It's irrelevant what's in it. 

If you take a picture of the Mona Lisa then you can vero someone else who uses that photo. You just need to publish it elsewhere so the vero team can have proof. 

Noone is talking about copyrighting Mona Lisa itself

[4_bathrooms]

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@rigged_out wrote:

They want to protect the images used in their listing.

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As per the User Agreement:

"When providing us with content (including causing content to be posted using our Services), you grant us a non-exclusive, worldwide, perpetual (or for the duration of any copyright or other rights in such content), irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to use the content (including, without limitation, creating and using derivative works). We may in particular use your content, including any photographs you upload, for marketing and promotional purposes. This includes (i) offering it to other sellers to use in their listings, and (ii) displaying it to other eBay users as part of the browsing experience on eBay. We will also be allowed to keep a copy of any content (including photographs) you upload in our product catalogue for subsequent use for these purposes. You authorise us to exercise any and all copyright, trademark, publicity, database or other intellectual property rights you have in or to the content in any media known now or developed in the future for these purposes. Further, to the fullest extent permitted under applicable law, you waive your moral rights in the content and promise not to assert such rights or any other intellectual property rights you have in the content against us, our sublicensees or our assignees."

In short, eBay's users forfeit any copyright they have to eBay when they upload their own content (including images) for a listing. Further, eBay's users agree not to assert their (forfeited) rights against anyone, including other eBay users.

[rigged_out]

Perhaps tell eBay staff that. eBay have a video on their youtube channel explaining how to vero another seller for using your listing images. I think the OP should listen to eBay staff and let them make their own way.

[4_bathrooms]

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@rigged_out wrote:

Perhaps tell eBay staff that. eBay have a video on their youtube channel explaining how to vero another seller for using your listing images. I think the OP should listen to eBay staff and let them make their own way.

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Maybe if you posted a link to this video the OP could listen to what eBay staff have to say about the matter.