How to handle potential buyer scam

[reubenb7]

I recently sold a new but open boxed iPhone on eBay as a private seller. It was a warranty replacement so unactivated straight from Apple, and I included the original box and accessories from the previous unit, as stated in the listing. I don't sell very often but have bought and sold a number of items over the years and had my account for over a decade with no issues. The buyer had postive feedback, paid fine and it was all cleared through eBay so I posted the item via special delivery, and it arrived all fine and was packaged to the extreme as I didn't want to risk any damage. The buyer then complained that the iPhone box was open - which was clearly shown in the listing via the photos and the description. I explained this to them, and how warranty replacements come in a plain brown box and I included the device in the original Apple box. They then said about the brown box but implied that it hadn't even arrived in an Apple box?, which was not the case. Just over a day later they claimed that the device won't turn on. I had already verified the device turns on fine both when I collected it from the Apple store, and at home and recorded this, which I also did in part to record the serial number and IMEI, so there is no way this could be true. Also, who would wait over a day after buying a new iPhone to check if it switches on? After some back and forth and me advising them to plug it in to charge etc. they then start to complain that there is missing paperwork, which again, was not true. I included the original quick start guide and the other papers that come in the iPhone box. Finally yesterday after some days of back and forth they have opened a return request stating the device is faulty. The seller hasn't provided any evidence of anything, be it photos of anything received or a video showing the device not powering on etc.

My understanding is right now my hand is forced and I basically have to accept the return, provide a postage label within 3 days, and then once I have received the item I have 2 days to refund the buyer, even if I open a case. If I don't do this I seem to stand to lose both the money AND the device.

I did some digging and trying to find any information about the seller/property which was near impossible, it seemed as if non of the flats that are part of the block had ever been sold or had any history whatsoever. Further digging lead me to find reference to the YMCA, which for those outside of the UK is a charity that provides housing to the homeless. I then contacted them via email and they confirmed that this block of flats is in fact YMCA accomodation.

As far as I can tell what is going to end up happening is they are almost certainly going to send back an empty box, or send back a fake or defective unit, as I am now near 100% confident this is a scam, and as far as I can tell eBay basically never sides with sellers in this case. Thankfully they have at least not claimed that the box was empty and the device was inside. The buyer is now completely unresponsive too unsurprisingly.

The steps I've taken to protect myself so far are:

- Recording the device in a working state with the serial number and IMEI number.

- Fully recording myself packing the item, clearly showing the iPhone in the box, and weighing the fully packed box. The weight matches exactly the weight on the horizon proof of postage slip I recieved from the post office when I dropped it off. The parcel shown in the postage tracking for the proof of delivery photo also looks identical, undamaged, and untampered.

- I have proof that the devices serial number belongs to me, from the Apple receipt.

- I have been daily checking the activation status of the iPhone with timestamps, which is still unactivated but I anticipate will be shortly after the return is processed.

If the return doesn't include the device as I sent it, as far as I know from reading the forums I should do the following:

- First report it to the police as theft and not fraud, both in my county and the buyers county

- Report to action fraud and get a case number

- Try and get the IMEI blocked and report the device as stolen

- Report it to the YMCA as well probably, although they are already somewhat aware

I think the fact that they're in YMCA accomodation is probably the only thing that may prompt the police to get involved, as from what I know they're generaly quite involved with the charity as many people living there are past offenders or require extra support etc. and maybe this could help my case too. Of course I haven't received the return yet, but I am 99% confident at this point this is a scam as most would be, and it doesn't seem like I have any options either.

After I receive whatever they return, do I still have to pay the refund within the 2 days? Or can I ask eBay to step in at that point? Other than recording recieving, weighing, and opening the package from the doorstep, is there anything else I can do. Based on what I've seen from others it seems like eBay will unlikely do anything and I stand to lose here - how could I have done anything differently to protect myself? I feel like I did everything I could do? From reading the forums it seems like eBay has basically no protection for sellers at all. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[sml192]

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@reubenb7 wrote:

I recently sold a new but open boxed iPhone on eBay as a private seller. It was a warranty replacement so unactivated straight from Apple, and I included the original box and accessories from the previous unit, as stated in the listing. I don't sell very often but have bought and sold a number of items over the years and had my account for over a decade with no issues. The buyer had postive feedback, paid fine and it was all cleared through eBay so I posted the item via special delivery, and it arrived all fine and was packaged to the extreme as I didn't want to risk any damage. The buyer then complained that the iPhone box was open - which was clearly shown in the listing via the photos and the description. I explained this to them, and how warranty replacements come in a plain brown box and I included the device in the original Apple box. They then said about the brown box but implied that it hadn't even arrived in an Apple box?, which was not the case. Just over a day later they claimed that the device won't turn on. I had already verified the device turns on fine both when I collected it from the Apple store, and at home and recorded this, which I also did in part to record the serial number and IMEI, so there is no way this could be true. Also, who would wait over a day after buying a new iPhone to check if it switches on? After some back and forth and me advising them to plug it in to charge etc. they then start to complain that there is missing paperwork, which again, was not true. I included the original quick start guide and the other papers that come in the iPhone box. Finally yesterday after some days of back and forth they have opened a return request stating the device is faulty. The seller hasn't provided any evidence of anything, be it photos of anything received or a video showing the device not powering on etc.

My understanding is right now my hand is forced and I basically have to accept the return, provide a postage label within 3 days, and then once I have received the item I have 2 days to refund the buyer, even if I open a case. If I don't do this I seem to stand to lose both the money AND the device.

I did some digging and trying to find any information about the seller/property which was near impossible, it seemed as if non of the flats that are part of the block had ever been sold or had any history whatsoever. Further digging lead me to find reference to the YMCA, which for those outside of the UK is a charity that provides housing to the homeless. I then contacted them via email and they confirmed that this block of flats is in fact YMCA accomodation.

As far as I can tell what is going to end up happening is they are almost certainly going to send back an empty box, or send back a fake or defective unit, as I am now near 100% confident this is a scam, and as far as I can tell eBay basically never sides with sellers in this case. Thankfully they have at least not claimed that the box was empty and the device was inside. The buyer is now completely unresponsive too unsurprisingly.

The steps I've taken to protect myself so far are:

- Recording the device in a working state with the serial number and IMEI number.

- Fully recording myself packing the item, clearly showing the iPhone in the box, and weighing the fully packed box. The weight matches exactly the weight on the horizon proof of postage slip I recieved from the post office when I dropped it off. The parcel shown in the postage tracking for the proof of delivery photo also looks identical, undamaged, and untampered.

- I have proof that the devices serial number belongs to me, from the Apple receipt.

- I have been daily checking the activation status of the iPhone with timestamps, which is still unactivated but I anticipate will be shortly after the return is processed.

If the return doesn't include the device as I sent it, as far as I know from reading the forums I should do the following:

- First report it to the police as theft and not fraud, both in my county and the buyers county

- Report to action fraud and get a case number

- Try and get the IMEI blocked and report the device as stolen

- Report it to the YMCA as well probably, although they are already somewhat aware

I think the fact that they're in YMCA accomodation is probably the only thing that may prompt the police to get involved, as from what I know they're generaly quite involved with the charity as many people living there are past offenders or require extra support etc. and maybe this could help my case too. Of course I haven't received the return yet, but I am 99% confident at this point this is a scam as most would be, and it doesn't seem like I have any options either.

After I receive whatever they return, do I still have to pay the refund within the 2 days? Or can I ask eBay to step in at that point? Other than recording recieving, weighing, and opening the package from the doorstep, is there anything else I can do. Based on what I've seen from others it seems like eBay will unlikely do anything and I stand to lose here - how could I have done anything differently to protect myself? I feel like I did everything I could do? From reading the forums it seems like eBay has basically no protection for sellers at all. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

If you receive back a different item or an empty box then, as you say. you first need to report it to Action Fraud/Police and obtain a crime number.

Once you have the crime number there will be an option in the eBay dispute to 'Report a ptoblem'.  Use that to report the issue and provide eBay with the crime number.

If you do that then it is possible that eBay will still refund the buyer but out of their own funds instead of taking the refund from you.

If that isn't successful then you would need to look at taking legal action against the buyer starting with a 'Letter before Action'. 

[reubenb7]

Thanks for the reply. As far as I can tell though even if I report it within the 2 days they still refund the buyer, and will proabably take the money from my account? I've thought about potentially having to take legal action if I have to but they are literally homeless so it would probably be futile, although they are probably scamming several people so maybe I have a shot at it. Will have to wait and see what arrives on my doorstep but I am not hopeful.

[*vyolla*]

There's nothing you can do here until you get your phone back.

The usual way foreward in these situations is that the seller accepts the return and gets their item back, if it isn’t their item they then immediately  file a report with Action Fraud and get a reference number.

The seller then clicks the "Report a problem" link in the case, selects "Different item returned" as the reason and provides the Actionfraud reference number and report. This stops the automated returns process that would ultimately force the seller to issue a refund.

Then, someone at eBay reviews the case and may issue a "courtesy refund" to the buyer out of eBay's own funds.

Legal action is pointless unless the buyer has some funds, and it doesn't sound like yours has.

[4_bathrooms]

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@sml192 wrote:

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@reubenb7 wrote:

If the return doesn't include the device as I sent it, as far as I know from reading the forums I should do the following:

- First report it to the police as theft and not fraud, both in my county and the buyers county

- Report to action fraud and get a case number

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After obtaining a reference number and report from Action Fraud you would need to find the all important "Report a problem" link in the return case. Clicking this will present a few options for filing the report such as "Returned a different item". You would need to select the most appropriate option then include the Action Fraud reference number and AF's report (if you received one) in your eBay report. You must click the "Report a problem" link in the return case to do this; doing so stops the automated returns process and opens a new case.

As eBay are regulated by the FCA they are obliged to take reasonable steps to protect their customers against fraud; the above process is known to work and everyone who has followed that process exactly and reported back to these boards has had their funds released by eBay with no further consequence to their account.

[reubenb7]

Thanks for all of the replies. I have uploaded a postage label just now as I have to by tomorrow. The postage I bought from Royal Mail has to be used within 7 days, meaning it expires on 4/9, but the buyer has up to 3 weeks to send the item by the 18/9. Do I really have to buy up to 3 postage labels to cover this, which with special delivery are almost £10 each? I assume they are going to wait as long as possible to get something sent. Also, is it possible to upload replacement labels and update the return postage information?  Many thanks.

[pilsburys-bargains]

If you took it to the post office when you sent it your receipt should have a weight on it. To protect yourself against receiving an empty box, weigh the item unopened as soon as it arrives back. Take photos if necessary.

[myriad*seller]

The police will not get involved

They simply do not have time or resources to deal with petty crime 

Action Fraud merely issue crime numbers, they won't investigate anything 

[4_bathrooms]

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@reubenb7 wrote:

Thanks for all of the replies. I have uploaded a postage label just now as I have to by tomorrow. The postage I bought from Royal Mail has to be used within 7 days, meaning it expires on 4/9, but the buyer has up to 3 weeks to send the item by the 18/9. Do I really have to buy up to 3 postage labels to cover this, which with special delivery are almost £10 each?

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No, you only need to upload the one label. If you purchased the label via Royal Mail's website you can obtain a refund if the label isn't used by the deadline.

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@reubenb7 wrote:

I assume they are going to wait as long as possible to get something sent. 

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If the buyer is trying to scam you they will most likely take advantage of the automated nature of eBay's returns process. Once the label you have uploaded shows a status indicating delivery or attempted delivery you have 2 days to either issue a refund or report a problem. If you do neither and the buyer escalates the case on the third day they will automatically receive a full refund. A scammer would be unlikely to risk complicating matters by not using the label before it's expiry date.

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@reubenb7 wrote:

Also, is it possible to upload replacement labels and update the return postage information?  Many thanks.

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I believe you can do this by "updating" the tracking information but as mentioned I doubt it will come to that.

[4_bathrooms]

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@pilsburys-bargains wrote:

To protect yourself against receiving an empty box, weigh the item unopened as soon as it arrives back. Take photos if necessary.

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That would prove absolutely nothing. 

[reubenb7]

Update:

I accepted the return and uploaded the postage label on 28/8 as I had to by the 29th, and today I have got an email saying the buyer themselves has opened a case for the return, which when I go into provides no details at all other than it is on hold until 5/9 and eBay is looking into it - the postage label I uploaded also expires on the 4th. I also received another email 2 minutes later saying I need to provide a return postage label, which I did upload already when I accepted the return, so I have also sent it to the buyer via a message as the email says that it what to do.

Is there anything else I can do at this point? I have the option to add my own details to the case, even though it doesn't tell me why they've opened it, is this worth doing now? Or should I just wait until I receive something back to open a case myself? Many thanks.

[*vyolla* · Accepted solution]

I'd contact eBay to make sure that they understand and acknowledge that you've gone out of your way to facilitate a return here and have uploaded a postage label, and ask them to check it and confirm that all is good their end and they can see that you have sent a postage label to the buyer and that the ball is now is the buyers court and you are waiting for them to send the item back with the label you've provided. 

Do this via live chat so you get a transcript.

I’ve found that the easiest route to contact eBay Customer Services is via the link below:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/eua?id=5275&mkevt=1&mkpid

[reubenb7]

Thanks for the reply. Would you advise I add information to the case before contacting them, it may make it easier if they have all the details? On the return I have the option to report a problem with the buyer, although it doesn't give any details of why the buyer opened the case. Should I do that or just contact them right away? Thanks!

[arkwebus]

My understanding is right now my hand is forced and I basically have to accept the return, provide a postage label within 3 days, and then once I have received the item I have 2 days to refund the buyer, even if I open a case. If I don't do this I seem to stand to lose both the money AND the device.

Basically "yes" I am afraid.   You have detailed advice as to what to do. The main thing is that - as the system is mainly automated - do not miss a time limit and argue afterwards.   It is the buyer who opens a case; I am not aware of any case that a seller can open.

We note your security actions but I very much doubt that eBay will consider them.  They say that they never see what was sent or returned. 

If an empty box is returned then - as advised - Action Fraud. 

The advice to sue using "small claims court" is - sadly - not correct as what has happened is a criminal matter.    Again police will have very little will to deal due to lack of resources.    @reubenb7  

[*vyolla*]

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@reubenb7 wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Would you advise I add information to the case before contacting them, it may make it easier if they have all the details? On the return I have the option to report a problem with the buyer, although it doesn't give any details of why the buyer opened the case. Should I do that or just contact them right away? Thanks!

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What information are you thinking of adding?

You can't report the buyer yet.

My concern, and why I posted that advice to contact eBay, is that this is getting messy and it's not impossible that something will get missed somewhere and eBay just refunds the buyer. It's important that eBay understand that the buyer has received a pre-paid returns label and you're waiting for them to use it to send your item back. 

[reubenb7]

Final Update:

I just contacted eBay via the live chat like suggested by @*vyolla* . They asked if the item I was enquiring about was the iPhone, and without giving details with my side of the story they pretty quickly came back with this response:

"We’ve reviewed this case and found that the purchase isn't covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee.
As a result, we’re closing this case in your favour.
The buyer won’t be refunded.
This case won’t count against your seller performance and you don’t need to do anything else."

I also just received an email from eBay confirming the case the buyer opened has been closed. The eBay account of theirs has also been deleted - presumably they have been trying to scam others too. I've gotta give massive kudos to eBay here - I wasn't expecting it to be resolved this easily and it has been causing myself quite a lot of stress thinking about this. Thank you to anyone who replied with advice, it's been very helpful!

[sml192]

You stated in your original post that the buyer had 'opened a return request stating the device is faulty', i.e. an 'Item not as described' dispute. 

I think what has happened now is that the buyer has escalated that dispute to eBay, for some reason, at which point eBay considers it to be a formal case rather than just a dispute.  There is no other case that a buyer can open within eBay at this stage. 

Ebay appear to have placed the case on hold until the 05/09 because they can see that you have uploaded a prepaid return label to the dispute and they are, therefore, expecting the item to be returned to you by that date.   There is really, therefore, nothing further that you need to do at this stage, although you can contact eBay to confirm the situation if you wish. 

If by the 05/09 the buyer has made no attempt to return the item, i.e. the return label is unused, then eBay should simply find in your favour.   If the label has been used but the tracking doesn't show as either 'delivered' or 'delivery attempted' then eBay may allow longer for it to arrive before making a decision. 

[sml192]

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@reubenb7 wrote:

Final Update:

I just contacted eBay via the live chat like suggested by @*vyolla* . They asked if the item I was enquiring about was the iPhone, and without giving details with my side of the story they pretty quickly came back with this response:

"We’ve reviewed this case and found that the purchase isn't covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee.
As a result, we’re closing this case in your favour.
The buyer won’t be refunded.
This case won’t count against your seller performance and you don’t need to do anything else."

I also just received an email from eBay confirming the case the buyer opened has been closed. The eBay account of theirs has also been deleted - presumably they have been trying to scam others too. I've gotta give massive kudos to eBay here - I wasn't expecting it to be resolved this easily and it has been causing myself quite a lot of stress thinking about this. Thank you to anyone who replied with advice, it's been very helpful!

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Apologies, I didn't see your latest update before I posted but it might still be useful for future reference. 

Great that you have now managed to get this sorted. 

[*vyolla*]

Great news @reubenb7 , thanks for coming back with an update. We do like a happy ending.

[reubenb7]

Final Final Update - For those interested, a few hours after the case has been closed the phone has now been activated when it wasn't previously as it was new, so no doubt an attempt to scam me. Stay safe out there!