First time having someone request a refund…dodgy?

[tytherley12]

Hi, I sold our Dual Fuel Rangemaster oven today.  It was collected by the purchaser this morning. The purchaser has, this evening, requested a refund claiming that the item isn’t as described.  The purchaser wanted the ovens to be electric, but one is gas and one is electric. I even put in the listing that the main oven is gas, because I wanted to advertise that it has been barely used. Photo of listing below. I also showed her husband which oven compartment was gas when he collected it.  In her messages this evening she has accused me of editing the listing which I haven’t!  To add, she had sent a question before she placed a bid, which I didn’t get around to replying to, which said “Hi can I ask is the oven electric or gas just in the listing it says gas oven but it says dual fuel” so she clearly did know it had a gas oven. Is it likely that EBay will rule in her favour do you think? I don’t really sell on eBay and this lady clearly knows eBay inside and out judging by the content of her messages. It’s really thrown me.  I’ve spoken to eBay and the eBay lady basically said the buyer can do what it likes. Surely this can’t be right? Thanks for reading and any advice. 

[tytherley12]

This is great and so helpful, thanks so much. Everything here is very clear but for some unknown reason, eBay is ignoring its own policy and rules? 

[*vyolla*]

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@tytherley12 wrote:

This is great and so helpful, thanks so much. Everything here is very clear but for some unknown reason, eBay is ignoring its own policy and rules? 

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They're not. If a buyer claims that their collection item isn't as described then they may return it for a full refund, and the seller needs to arrange and pay for the collection before the buyer escalates the case to ask eBay to step in (3 business days).

It's a largely automated system, so a human isn't going to look at the listing or any messages that have passed between buyer and seller, the human touch comes in at the appeal stage (which is a risk, as I explained earlier).

You can report the buyer for abusing eBay's return system, and should, but it won't change the outcome of the return case unless your buyer has past form for doing this lots. 

There's nothing to report eBay for either.

I can appreciate that you want to grasp at every straw, but instead of going off at a tangent, your best bet right now is to stay focused and decide if you want to decline the return and chance the appeal process (bear in mind that you may not win, so will lose the oven and the money), or accept it.

Right now it's really a damage limitation exercise and for you to appear to be acting reasonably i.e contacting the buyer to sort out collection arrangements. Personally, I feel that they'll goof here and mess around and this is where you might win, and eBay allow you to keep the payment. It's vital to keep messages simple though. You may want to take legal action at some future point, so getting their address is also important. 

[suelel1968]

Generally the fca don't deal with individual complaints, it is the financial ombudsman you need to contact and for that you need Ebay's final response. 

You might want to read a couple of decisions made on the website (google Financial Ombudsman decisions) 

However, it is not a quick process. No one at either fca or fo is going into bat for you in time.

For what it's worth I would collect the item.

If that does not pan out, then i would tell the buyer i was going to report them for misuse of the money back guarantee and not as described policy  and dispute the case with ebay. No knee jerk responses, draft a full response to buyer and ebay. 

If ebay find in your favour, great. If not, i guess that is the final response for the Ombudsman. 

There is a chance that the buyer still goes via their bank for a charge back, but the FO have found in seller's favour on that.

Goodluck

[pennybags]

Yes, I've removed half a dozen listings - those where any return costs would be above £30, until there's clarity from ebay on if/why a buyer could win an INAD case where customer services say the item was described clearly. Hopefully I can reinstate them (potentially with changes) after that's cleared up.

[moonlight-rhapsody]

@*vyolla* 

I feel as if I'm missing something - surely ebay can see from the description that the item *IS* as described...?

[*vyolla*]

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@moonlight-rhapsody wrote:

@*vyolla* 

I feel as if I'm missing something - surely ebay can see from the description that the item *IS* as described...?

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The buyer has decided that it isn't and the returns process is largely automated. A human looks at the case on appeal, which is a double edged sword as the seller may not win it, it's a big risk. 

A couple of Community Managers have been tagged, but I feel that it's unlikely that they'll be in a position to comment on this, as there is a process to follow. 

[xyz307xyz]

"They're not. If a buyer claims that their collection item isn't as described then they may return it for a full refund, and the seller needs to arrange and pay for the collection before the buyer escalates the case to ask eBay to step in (3 business days)."

Which part of the underlined is true in your opinion?

[4_bathrooms]

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@xyz307xyz wrote:

But it doesn't really matter what I think, or other members on here. ebay will make the decision. I hope it's not done automatically by computer

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Return cases are completely automated up to a point. When a buyer opens an INAD claim the seller can either issue a full refund, upload a return label or offer a partial refund. If none of these things have been done by the third working day after the case was opened the buyer can escalate the case and will receive a full refund at the seller's expense and be told they don't need to return anything. The same applies if the seller offers a partial refund but the buyer rejects the offer.

@tytherley12 - you will need to find a way of retrieving the cooker; I really don't expect eBay to deviate from their established returns process as detailed above. However, I doubt you will find a carrier who will fully insure against damage in transit due to the oven door glass; most freight carriers would only offer transit insurance if the cooker was secured on a pallet. Once you have the cooker back you can then report a problem to eBay and they may or may not do something about your report.    

[*vyolla*]

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@xyz307xyz wrote:

"They're not. If a buyer claims that their collection item isn't as described then they may return it for a full refund, and the seller needs to arrange and pay for the collection before the buyer escalates the case to ask eBay to step in (3 business days)."

Which part of the underlined is true in your opinion?

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Not sure what you mean?

[sml192]

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@*vyolla* wrote:

Just to add, I don't believe that the husband qualifies as a 'third party' collecting. That would be a courier company (such as Shiply) collecting on the buyers behalf. 

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Using a courier to collect is mentioned separately to third party collection in the eBay Money Back Guarantee.  Strictly speaking the buyer's husband should count as a third party as they are not the actual buyer and are, therefore, collecting on behalf of the buyer. 

Exclusions and special coverage when the item doesn't match the listing

Items collected by a third party on behalf of the buyer	Not covered
The buyer arranged their own delivery method, such as a courier pickup	Not covered

[xyz307xyz]

You've said the buyer can just decide it's not as described "and the seller needs to arrange and pay for the collection".

Anyone could return anything/everything on that basis.

The picture is of the ebay policy saying it has to be faulty, damaged or doesn't match the listing to request a return.

-the item does match the description and customer services have said so.

This isn't for you to answer but I don't understand why the customer services person doesn't just close the case or send it to someone authorised to review it and decide. I know a lot of cases are normally automated but surely when a customer services person has decided the description was OK, the item was £400+ and return costs are £80 then it can be flagged, and not just decided after an appeal.

I've now seen your response #86 and maybe that covers this also.

We've only heard the seller's perspective, (well, and customer services) but the initial case process seems to offer very little protection for the seller. Do you have experience of, or have heard about other people's experience of the appeals procedure - is that in your opinion fair to both sides? It's your comment of "big risk" which is concerning me. Many thanks

[moldosgifts]

Its a null point in my opinion as the buyer was after all electric, so any mention of gas should have been a  warning to the buyer.

So not misdescribed at all.

[*vyolla*]

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@sml192 wrote:

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@*vyolla* wrote:

Just to add, I don't believe that the husband qualifies as a 'third party' collecting. That would be a courier company (such as Shiply) collecting on the buyers behalf. 

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Using a courier to collect is mentioned separately to third party collection in the eBay Money Back Guarantee.  Strictly speaking the buyer's husband should count as a third party as they are not the actual buyer and are, therefore, collecting on behalf of the buyer. 

Exclusions and special coverage when the item doesn't match the listing

Items collected by a third party on behalf of the buyer	Not covered
The buyer arranged their own delivery method, such as a courier pickup	Not covered

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It's certainly worth mentioning that the buyer themselves didn't collect it, but I still don't believe that eBay will class the husband as a third party here. 

[*vyolla*]

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@xyz307xyz wrote:

We've only heard the seller's perspective, (well, and customer services) but the initial case process seems to offer very little protection for the seller. Do you have experience of, or have heard about other people's experience of the appeals procedure - is that in your opinion fair to both sides? It's your comment of "big risk" which is concerning me. Many thanks

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I've known of a few appeals over the years, and would say that it mainly hinges on the appellant's ability to put together a short, clear and very precise argument as to why they should win. Those that feel that they have to waffle on and drop cards in that they think should be played (such as the stress it's caused and mental health etc) dilute the argument, they don't win it. If there are three precise reasons why the appellant should win, then they just need three factual bullet point sentences. As with any argument, the idea is to box someone into a corner so that they can do nothing except agree.

[moonlight-rhapsody]

"I only discovered it was a man and wife team from the messages this evening. The man who collected it made the arrangements and didn’t mention his wife at all. In fact he was delighted with the cooker and in his words he said “that’s just perfect”.

Because it was the wife who messaged you, we've all been talking as if it's the wife who was the buyer and had arranged for her husband to pick it up, but from what you've said above, it's sounds more like it's the husband who is the actual buyer.

Did ebay supply you with the buyer's name and address when they paid, and if so, whose name does it show?

I'm not sure if it makes a difference if it was the actual buyer who collected and inspected it, any comments...?

[sheba-knows-best]

Hi.

Blimey.

I would take heart from the fact the husband set off no alarm bells and the buyer messaged you to ask if it was a gas oven – suggesting she isn’t a hardened scammer but someone who is confused about what dual fuel implies (as was I) and is now loathe to lose £450 herself. This view point also explains why she agreed to sort the problem ‘even-handedly’ (with a 50% refund). You’re probably screaming at that but in my view a hardened scammer would never have offered that so soon. Not before you’d even started discussing collection times.

So, if it were me, I would ring ebay and explain everything again. Show the evidence in your favour, lay out the case that you could not have written things more clearly - as a trick, ask the CS, to say how he/she woud have written the listing -  and double-check that they cannot make a goodwill gesture and refund the buyer for you (whilst letting her keep the item).

If ebay wont help, I would message the buyer again saying rather than you fight the case how about her husband return the cooker to you and you split the cost of the petrol? If she is not amenable to that, I would consider my options:

• find the £80 to get my cooker back (I wouldn’t choose this, what if it arrives back damaged? Frankly, I’d want this over with)
• fight the ebay case (I wouldn’t do this – a positive outcome is hard to predict)
• accept the 50% partial refund, tell yourself mistakes happen, people are stupid.

I know that will sting. And I might not suggest it if I thought it was a deliberate scam. But I don't. I think the evidence points to human error and then I'm all for an easy life.

[moonlight-rhapsody]

"I've known of a few appeals over the years, and would say that it mainly hinges on the appellant's ability to put together a short, clear and very precise argument as to why they should win. Those that feel that they have to waffle on and drop cards in that they think should be played (such as the stress it's caused and mental health etc) dilute the argument, they don't win it. If there are three precise reasons why the appellant should win, then they just need three factual bullet point sentences."

Yes, I'd agree.  Just to be clear though, if you could clarify:

- does the seller have to collect the cooker first, before she can put in an appeal, or can she try to speak to someone in Ireland in the morning to see if they will rule in her favour, so that she doesn't have to collect it.

-  would she only complain to ecukcomplaints@ebay.com if she loses her money and/or the oven, rather than immediately?

[moonlight-rhapsody]

@tytherley12 

Your screenshot doesn't show the title of the listing.  Does it mention "dual fuel" or "gas oven" in the title, ie anything that would strengthen your case.

[w79805]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/127198294822

"Rangemaster Classic 90 Dual Fuel Oven and extractor hood - cream"

[tytherley12]

I’m so confused. I spoke to Ryan again, in Ireland, and he was strongly encouraging me to try and resolve this with the buyer, and for me to pay for collection.  I asked if that would go in my favour if I then appeal and I couldn’t get a straight answer. If I collect it, am I effectively admitting it was listed incorrectly?