Buyer protection fee

[nostalgia.toys]

I understand that eBay has to make a profit but this is just not working. I am having to reduce my selling price by 4% to achieve the advertised price I am seeking, effectively a selling fee of 4%. Buyers seem to be staying away as I have only sold 2 items since this was imposed when I would normally have expected to sell 10-12 in that period.

I know other platforms use this system but they are selling relatively low value items. 4% of £20.00 would only be 80p but 4% of £200 would be £8.00, enough to put buyers off.

Are other private sellers finding a significant reduction in their turnover?

[andha-21]

@nostalgia.toys 

I switched off my listings Feb 3rd. I don't want to play Guinea Pig for anyone. But I've been watching my main interest areas the whole time since. Warhammer models mostly.

What I've been seeing and I generally have a hundred or so individual listings bookmarked are that auctions are bottoming out far lower than they were a couple of months ago.

We've got a mega dealers in that sector that only does auction listings and they are so big, have so many followers that they generally get way more than anyone else for the same/similar models. Even they are down. Looks like around 20% down on what they were getting before.

The smaller dealers are taking big hits.

I managed to get a really rare model I've always wanted this week. Last well painted one sold around a month ago for £125. I got mine for £66.

That was OOP Forgeworld. Normally they either hold value or increase. In years watching I've never seen them drop, till now.

[privatebaldrick]

Apologies for the length of this reply, and I really don't expect anyone to read it all, but I have to get this off my chest. And, the whole buyer protection thing has been done to death now on other threads so you might want to go and read a few of those.

But, what has struck me is that private sellers on eBay feel they are somehow entitled to have a say in how eBay does business. All the while they don't pay for the private seller service, unfortunately they don't have much of a say at all.

I don't work for eBay, but I do have a good appreciation of what running a site like Ebay involves. Now that listing items is free for private sellers, I think they forget that they are getting an incredible service from eBay completely free - as in the seller pays nothing. I don't believe that a private individual has the ability to sell their personal items (let's not forget, if you're using eBay for trading as a business your listings don't attract BPF and there are quite a few private sellers who probably should be registered as businesses) with the ease and convenience that eBay provides.

If you can do everything I list below, for free, then possibly that is a better option for you than using eBay and you should explore it:

• Host the equivalent of the global eBay website (with full buyer and seller login/account management and security) along with all of the associated technology infrastructure that allows a private, non-fee paying seller, to:
• List items for sale with categorisation, summaries, full rich text descriptions and photos
• Have those listings as one-off 'buy it now' or time limited auction sales.
• For auctions, manage the entire bidding process down to the last seconds and decide the winner
• Host listings such that anyone in the world can see them 24 hours a day and if the seller chooses to allow international sales, buy them.
• Provide online and downloadable performance reporting and statistics for sales - retained, I believe for up to 2 years for seller's orders.
• Process buyer payments such that you never have to worry about the transaction process or concern your self with Payment Card Industry rules
• Albeit more focused to business sellers, the platform provides marketing and advertising tools
• Provide a mechanism for creating and viewing buyer and seller feedback
• Provide mechanisms for purchasing postage for items and provide tracking information from the original postage providers on eBay itself.
• And a lot more I've probably missed

I have had a life clear-out recently and managed to sell off a few old console games, hi-fi equipment and computing items. I have been lucky enough to do it during the period where seller listings were free and there was no buyer protection fee. When I read about buyer protection I realised I didn't want to trust the postal system and possibly unscrupulous buyers with my possessions (for until I get paid, they are still mine) and so I unlisted any remaining delivery items in early Feb 2025 and now only list collection only items. At least that way, the buyer has to go out of their way if they really want the item and are unlikely to want to rip me off, I can look them in the eye and I get paid immediately on collection once the code is scanned - essentially cutting out the postal middle man and the remote anonymity of delivery items.

So you have a some choices:

• Continue to use eBay's free service and accept it's new rules. You can continue to complain or voice your opinions on online review sites, but would have to accept that complaints about a free service directly to eBay will always fall on deaf ears;
• Sell your items on another free to use platform and accept their rules (which are similar) - Vinted, Ebid, Etsy, etc;
• Setup your own online shop front using an existing e-commerce site which is not free - Shopify, Squarespace;
• For your nostalgia toy museum items specifically investigate selling them via a traditional auction house - this will obviously include auction fees though, so isn't free.
• Jump right in and do it all yourself - buy a domain name, SSL certificate, hosting, code up your own version of eBay with all of the above features, work out how you are going to handle payment processing, and thousands of other decisions and implications that come with building an e-commerce site like eBay. I think it's pretty safe to say this option will not be free. So much so that soon you'll be trying to work out how to make money to keep the whole operation going and you'll come up with ideas like Buyer Protection Fees.

I really don't think private sellers appreciate just what they have/had in eBay. Yes, it was nice when you got paid almost immediately and didn't have to wait for delivery and when you could buy postage directly from Royal Mail/Evri/Yodel or wherever you wanted instead of having to buy it via Ebay (Simple Delivery hmm, no thanks), but those days are now gone and you have to make a choice.

If you got this far, thanks for reading. I wish you good luck with selling off your old museum items. I see reviews online and people think it's a shame that your museum has closed, so it clearly used to be a cherished place. 

Stuart

[jow1995]

Great post, well done!

[lucy_farmer]

'I think they forget that they are getting an incredible service from eBay completely free - as in the seller pays nothing. '

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We haven't forgotten.

We know it's for free, but lots of us would really rather it wasn't. 

If we could just pay normal fees and be left to sort ourselves out, as in the past, we'd be well chuffed.

And it's the sheer patronising waffle that's got right up the nose of many: Yeah, we *know* ebay want to make money.

They're a business.

That's their job.

We do understand this... we know ebay isn't a charity.

BUT all the carp about 'protection',  'benefit to buyers', 'Simplicity in delivery', etc etc ... like they're doing it all 'for us!' (smiley voice-over in sickening advert style...🤢)

Do they think we're actually dim enough to believe their business bullsh** and spin?

I hope not, because that's a worse insult even than telling buyers they need protection from us.

This is what is winding me up, personally.

 Not the fact that a business needs to make money, that's  just  part of normal life....

[privatebaldrick]

I don't disagree. As I said, I just felt a need to get things off my chest.

I do realise that the BPF is quite a cynical move by eBay and as with all things in the corporate world it has to be introduced with all the BS, patronising corporate speak that entails. Unfortunately that is a fact of life nowadays.  They realised that there were more buyers than sellers so if you introduce a buyer protection fee for every transaction rather than a one off seller fee for every listing (that if it has multiple items could lead to many transactions) you make more money. I do get that. Simple Delivery will also allow eBay to make more money, and I assume they might make some money keeping seller's proceeds for longer as well. I've never worked for a company that hasn't spent lots of money on working out how to make more money. I see BPF and Simple Delivery simply as capitalism at work in Ebay. 

Private sellers are supposed to be small scale entities selling personal items and for those people I still feel they are getting a good service and BPF shouldn't be a concern - as I said, most of the alternatives to Ebay wouldn't be free. What I do see though is people who are clearly not in the category of a private seller bemoaning the BPF fees; even in some instances going so far as to say how it's going to hurt their 'business'. If you are running a business and eBay is essential to the sustainability of that business then you should probably pay for a business account and factor that into your overheads and BPF need not concern you. 

I agree, the changes are annoying. I enjoyed the few months that I sold some items on eBay. Even though I was only selling personal items I always treated every buyer with respect, the item I was selling with care in its packaging and shipping, and treated the whole transaction as if it were actually my profession; even though, it is not. Unfortunately not every seller does this and eBay is using this as justification for BPF - thus why honest and caring private sellers possibly feel so aggrieved by Ebay's accusatory approach.  I guess it might also prompt a few people who really are businesses operating as private sellers to pay for a business account.

Personally, I don't think BPF will improve things that much really, but I will be keeping an eye on how things evolve.

Stuart

[andha-21]

@privatebaldrick 

I read both of your recent posts and alot of what you say makes sense.

But "BPF hurting business" isn't the only argument against it.

I firmly believe there are multiple legal challenges available against it.

The simplest is that BPF is mandatory. Trading Standards have a specific provision for that. When you feel forced into buying something you didn't want.

eBay still advertise the Money Back Guarantee on every listing I've checked and it's still advertised in the help section separately to BPF.

So eBay are giving me a free money guarantee and then making me pay for another. That's heading down fraud routes.

Apart from that I use PayPal and Curve, both of which offer free protection.

So do I need BPF? NO

Do I want BPF? NO

Do I have a choice? NO

Then there's the new pricing system. Last I checked a guest buyer could see 3 different prices for the same item before paying.

That's not legal.

There are other arguments too.

So no, it's not just an argument of nasty eBay are hurting our pockets.

There are very real legal questions that they should answer.

If they want to trade with habitual UK residents they have to abide by UK laws and it looks like they may be playing fast and loose with some of them.

[the-nutwood-collection]

I spent my corporate career in IT and I know how much it costs to keep a platform like eBay running.  Why eBay decided to allow private sellers to use the platform free of charge is a complete mystery to me.  eBay is a business, it has investors, and these investors need to see a return on their investment.  If downsizing private sellers want to dispose of their worldly goods free of charge to save their children the task of hauling the stuff to the charity shop, they should petition Age Concern to create a site.

All that was needed was for private buyers to pay seller fees at the same % as business sellers.  Maybe, as a concession to SMEs and private sellers, their fees should have been inclusive of VAT - any enterprise that is VAT registered pays the % plus VAT.  Then all sellers would be equal, and there would be little advantage for business sellers to trade as private sellers, and this thorny problem would be solved.

By introducing the BPF eBay has not solved the issue of business sellers trading as private, because 4% +75p is an advantageous rate compared to what a business seller will pay, so businesses masquerading as private sellers will continue to exist.  They will have to wait for their pay out but, once a month has passed, the cash flow will be the same - just slightly delayed.

All the BPF has done is to unsettle buyers at a time of market uncertainty.  To me, it's like the chippie suddenly charging 50p for the salt and vinegar that used to come free, restaurants slapping a £1.50 cover charge per diner on the bill.  Had the enterprise just increased prices, customers would moan, but increasing prices are a fact of life and most would just accept it.  It's the obvious addition to the bill that riles customers, they think that laundering the tablecloth and washing the dishes should be included in the price - not tacked on as an extra.

Before embarking on this adventure, eBay should have considered the effect of phenomenology - it's not what actually exists, it's the observer's interpretation of what they see before them.  Had buyer fees been set at 4% +75p, sellers would have included it in the the price and buyers would have been none the wiser.  Buyers would either have accepted the price, or not purchased.  However, by tacking it on as an extra, buyers see it as a tariff they are paying to eBay and, possibly, don't like it.  eBay is Big Corporate and, to many people's minds, Big Corporate doesn't pay the amount of tax they consider it ought to pay.

Yes, the business model works for Vinted, but this is the model that Vinted implemented when the site was created.  Buyers either accepted it - which it seems they have - or shopped elsewhere.  eBay has never charged extra on top of the seller's price and, to expect buyers to accept it, was a brave - some would say foolhardy - business choice.

[privatebaldrick]

@andha-21 

I did deliberately steer clear of the legalities because a) I'm not a lawyer and b) I've read so many of the arguments and discussions on these forums that it's pretty obvious that eBay and how it relates to UK consumer law seems to be a bit of a mess.

Specifically though, your arguments against BPF are from the buyer perspective, not the seller. I was placing myself in the private seller position. As a buyer, personally, I don't really use eBay that much and BPF may well make me use it even less. So in that respect I agree, I didn't ask for it, I don't want it and there are other consumer protections in place anyway. But, as a buyer I do have a choice; I can choose to accept BPF and buy from eBay or I can not accept it and go elsewhere. Obviously if sellers of what I want are only on Ebay then I probably am going to have to accept it. 

The legal positions will be interesting to follow though. 

[andha-21]

@privatebaldrick 

"Obviously if sellers of what I want are only on Ebay then I probably am going to have to accept it. "

The last sentence is where they come unstuck.

[vinylscot]

You have now posted DOZENS of times on here that  you believe the imposition of eBay's BPF, and the way they have introduced it, may be illegal. You often quote Trading Standards.

You are beginning to come over all Chicken Little, repeatedly telling us that the sky is falling down, without providing any evidence whatever.

Yes you've quoted a number of things which you don't like about it (few people would disagree), but that doesn't make it illegal. And it is undoubtedly true that eBay have made an almighty mess with both the communication and implementation of these changes. But that still doesn't make them illegal.

It's time for you to put up or shut up.

Tell us precisely what LAWS you think eBay is breaking. Don't just whine that life is unfair. Or point at something and say "that must be illegal". Back it up.

If you can't do that, step aside, and wait for someone who knows what they're talking about to give a more informed opinion.

[andha-21]

I'm fairly certain I did actually mention a specific provision in my first reply to the other poster.

I then broke down how their system interacts with that.

[privatebaldrick]

"eBay has never charged extra on top of the seller's price and, to expect buyers to accept it, was a brave - some would say foolhardy - business choice."

And I'll be interested to keep an eye on how their bravery pans out.

In the meantime, I've made what little protest I could by un-listing some items that didn't really have much interest anyway and only having collection only listings to protect me from the vagaries of Royal Mail tracking. Although I do wonder what protection is really being offered for a collection only item that a buyer can see/test and accept at the point of handover. 🤷‍

Now, where's Age Concern's email address...

[kath3735_wxmjn]

i must admit that i really do not see why so many sellers are saying they are delisting items.  It costs nothing to list them!   I have actually had a better Feb this year than last year, my prices have remained the same regardless of whether fees are on/off (that included the old 80% off times as well).  I just cannot be bothered messing around.  If my £10 item is now £11. 90 (just approx figure) then either someone will buy or they will not.  The items are unwanted by me and my family so any sale is just a bonus.   I do realise that most of my items are clothes and it affects some sellers differently (stamps, postcards etc) but all sellers are under the same umbrella in having the extra to pay.

[elliedaz]

I think the problem a lot of private sellers have is it was fine before, the old system where we paid fees as part of the sale just worked. I personally never had a problem with that and have never expected eBay to be a free service.

On top of the other changes doing it this way makes the pricing structure a complete mess, in a best offer scenario random amounts going back and fourth isn't intuitive.

Although I admit that some people should have business accounts, there are a lot of genuine private sellers where this new setup just isn't working, and as I said previously many were happy with how it was before, we knew the free period was only ever going to be temporary and a big change was on the way, after all eBay is a large corporation and like any don't tend to do favours for the little man.

I see both sides to the confirmation of delivery approach, but I think most private sellers would rather have the fees come out at the point of transaction in favour of a clear pricing structure.

[remers-and-remers]

Hiya,

I can't believe ebay think buyer protection is really a good idea?

I'm 30% down on impressions and 58% down on sales.

Sending an offer is crazy as the prices are now so messed up.

And waiting 48 hours after delivery feels like just stealing my money, for two days at least.

Especially when the tracking doesn't update.

I spoke with an ebay agent, and he conceded there are a lot of complaints.

We are an experiment in progress.

[theelench]

I read all of your reply and would point out a couple of things where I dis-agree.

"But, what has struck me is that private sellers on ebay feel they are entitled to have a say in how ebay does business."

I feel no such thing, but as ebay is good enough to provide a Discussion Board so it can keep an eye / ear on sellers reactions to the way it runs its business, I do feel I am entitled to use it to give ebay my views as a private seller.  I'm sure that's what ebay intended, not that I should just silently read the opinions of mostly business sellers telling me how grateful I should be to be allowed to use the site under whatever conditions  ebay decides no matter how they dis-advantage me and reduce my sales.

"Sell your items on another free to use platform and accept their rules (which are similar) - Vinted, Ebid, Etsy etc.:"

I cannot comment on either Vinted or Etsy, I've never sold anything on either, but I do sell on Ebid  and can tell you it is definitely NOT a free to use site. 

Neither are their rules remotely similar.  I (happily) pay both listing and FVF's.  There is no BPF.  There are no compulsory payment Holds imposed by the site.  There are no plans to introduce anything like SD. 

Also there are no Sponsored Listings which ebay uses to control my visibility or bias in the search results towards such listings.  Just as on ebay I do not feel that I am entitled to have any say in making their rules, only that I can comment on them on their boards. 

As a private seller all I want is a platform where the fees are proportionate to the basic services that I require for my rather basic needs  --  List it, Sell it, Get paid (without undue delays). 

Not one where I have to pay for all manner of other services that I will never use and are not of any value to me because they are designed for high volume business sellers.

A search that puts my items in front of buyers searching for them, without paying extra fees.

A platform that doesn't label me as so unreliable that buyers need to be protected from me.

A platform that doesn't interfere with my delivery options or seek to tell me and my buyers when a third party delivery company will deliver their purchase.

And a platform that doesn't hold onto my money for its own benefit despite having a spotless sales record for a decade and more.

I think I do fully appreciate what I had in ebay.

An over-priced site for what I got in return for my fees .

One with its own, counter-intuitive listing and search parameters that do not lead buyers to my items.

One that insists on trying to dictate how I sell, how much I can sell and how I get parcels to buyers.

The final straw was my magnificent total of 4 sales last year after wasting something like 50 hours of my life listing many other items all of which attracted a flock of vultures waiting for fire-sale offers, but no buyers.

Yes, "those days are now gone"  and so have I (and quite possibly many others).  Free to Sell is not free and for many private sellers ebay is just not worth the effort and hassle any more.

[theelench]

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@andha-21 wrote:

@privatebaldrick 

"Obviously if sellers of what I want are only on Ebay then I probably am going to have to accept it. "

The last sentence is where they come unstuck.

---

I wouldn't, I'd look on google.  They can often find stuff on ebay that ebay's own search can't find.

[andha-21]

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@theelench wrote:

---

@andha-21 wrote:

@privatebaldrick 

"Obviously if sellers of what I want are only on Ebay then I probably am going to have to accept it. "

The last sentence is where they come unstuck.

---

I wouldn't, I'd look on google.  They can often find stuff on ebay that ebay's own search can't find.

---

@theelench 

Sorry, I'm not following?

The context of those replies was in reference to whether a buyer could choose whether to use BPF or not. If an item is only available on eBay, to give a very simple example, a painted model from a private seller, then if I want that specific item I can only buy it on eBay by paying BPF. At that point there is no choice. So even though I don't want or need it, I have no option. That runs against a very specific Trading Standards provision. 

[*devils.advocate*]

The context of those replies was in reference to whether a buyer could choose whether to use BPF or not.

I don't follow the premise.

I couldn't choose before when the sellers charged me fees to buy their item?

And the difference now?

That runs against a very specific Trading Standards provision.

What, specifically?