Buyer Fraud – Sellers Beware – Ebay Won’t Help

[lexusking]

I have been the victim of a buyer fraud and Ebay say it is not covered by Seller protection

In February 2024 I sold a £4000 Computer part I decided not to use to a buyer who had joined ebay one month before – zero feedback. I discounted the part from £4500 to £4000 to close the deal, he paid, I shipped the part to him by Royal Mail tracked insured service and on the Royal Mail tracking service there is a photo of him signing for the part at his door with his details displayed on the parcel. Ebay have a copy of this photo. Just to clarify he has never said he has not received the part, he has never questioned the condition of the part or the fact that it is the correct part that he bought. The buyer then messaged me asking for a further discount or he would like to return it, I had sold it with a no return policy and explained this and also stated that I could not retrospectively discount it any more. He then contacted Ebay saying he wanted to return it, Ebay opened a case, looked at the details and closed the case in my favour as I had followed ebay’s policies and the sale was conducted correctly. In March 2024 another case was opened by Ebay, saying that an outside financial institution had requested a refund of the full £4000 and until this was resolved my selling account funds would be on hold. I sent details to ebay showing the buyer had received the product correctly and suggested this was a fraud to get the product for nothing and I presume Ebay sent that information to the financial institution. This week Ebay messaged me to say the case had been decided in the buyers favour and that I needed to pay £4000 to ‘refund’ the sale. I contacted customer services to appeal and had a long chat with a service representative who said ebay could do nothing as the claim had come from the buyers funding source through paypal and they were powerless to do anything. I pointed out the buyer still had the part and the agent suggested I contact him to ask for it back – I have done this through messages  but have received no reply. Next week ebay want £4000 from me – bare in mind they took c£500 commission on the sale. So I would be £4500 out of pocket. The agent took my comments seriously and Ebay translated the ‘chat’ to a complaint, and within a few hours ebay responded saying they have followed their policies, refunded me £14 ‘dispute’ but they could do nothing. It has been suggested I contact the financial ombudsman if I am not happy, I will but on their website it says it can take them 6 months to reply. I am also going to contact the Police fraud hotline on Monday but that takes 28 days to get a response. So I lose £4500 to a scammer?  How can this be? Has anyone else fallen foul of a situation like this?

[sml192]

Ebay don't specify any limits in their 'Payment dispute seller protection' policy but, understandably, the greater the amount the more reluctant they will be to provide seller protection when a chargeback is found against them as any reimbursement will be coming out of their own pocket.  Once the buyer's card issuer has made their decision it cannot be reversed.

Ebay provides protection against chargebacks in 2 ways:

1.  Where the seller has tracking proving delivery and the reason for the chargeback is either 'Item not recieved' or 'Payment not recognised/not authorised';

2.  Where an eBay Money Back Guarantee case of the same type has already been opened and resolved in the seller's favour.

Unfortunately for you, the reason given for the chargeback was 'buyer hasn't received a refund' where as the reason for the original eBay case was 'item not received' so you don't qualify for protection under either of the above scenarios.

The big problem that you have here is that because the chargeback is against eBay and not you there is no way of knowing what grounds the buyer has used for alleging that they 'haven't received a refund'.  As you are not a direct party to the chargeback you don't get to see the information the buyer's card issuer gives to eBay or the information eBay gives to the card issuer in order to challenge the chargeback.   While you may feel that eBay hasn't handled the chargeback correctly and simply passed financial liability onto you, it is actually in their interest to deal with chargebacks properly as any unchallenged or unsuccessfully challenged chargebacks will be counted against them and too many can lead to serious consequences. 

PayPal has no direct involvement here as this was a chargeback with the buyer's card issuer via PayPal rather than a PayPal dispute so they won't be able to provide you with any information. 

There is really nothing more you can do through eBay.  The only way you are going to get your money back is legal action against the buyer.   You have 2 key pieces of evidence in this regard:

1.  Tracking allegedly proving delivery;

2.  The messages you received from the buyer requesting a further discount or to return the item.

Do any of the messages from the buyer  actually acknowledge receipt of the item?  This will be quite crucial. 

[motor_salvage_motor]

ignore the clowns on here saying you cant do nothing its total nonsense. Ive a few issues like this and taken then to court and also a conviction "obtaining goods by deception" for several scammers who thought it was acceptable sending back damaged goods or chargeback and keeping goods they got refund for.

There is no law which states that you can keep a item and money, no judge/ magistrate in the uk is going to allow a buyer to keep goods for free. 

If there is a fault with item then the buyer has no right to keep it and the money, the country is governed by LAW not by rules\ polices or terms and conditions BUT LAW.

Send a return label if you dont get item back, take them to small claims court, if they dont respond then get a judgement against them and send baliffs to recover the amount. 

if your a business then i suggest you join FSB for £150 a yr you get free legal advice to protect your business, just consumers get advice from trading standards to protect themselves.

search ""obtaining goods by deception" law uk and you will see what the law states about this

any advice drop me a line 

thanks

[plpmr]

Indeed it's unfortunate that sellers have to resort to legal proceedings to protect themselves.

When managed payments came in and sellers no longer got paid via PayPal they lost a big piece of protection they had against chargebacks.

[lexusking]

Hi Thank you for this positive response

I have mainly moved onto other stuff for reasons I will explain - so updates:

The buyer Jason Young is not called that - he is a Chinese gentleman with another name I cannot obtain - Jason Young is not on the electoral role and has not been for 7 years nor registered to the property the product was delivered to.

The property is owned by a well know Channel 4 journalist but having contacted him and received no reply he is on probablility not posing as Jason Young and has rented the flat - to someone - but I cannot find out who, and is avoiding any involvment.

I have been round to the million pound flat the product was delivered to and no one was in - neighbours do not know a 'Jason Young' nor who rents the flat but they did confirm he was Chinese and spoke little english and was away a lot......and may have left.

Oh and no Chinese name appears on the electoral role at that property nor on a 192 search of the property.

So pointless taking out a CCJ against Mr Young as even though it would be registered on the property he as an entity does not exist and without help from Ebay or Paypal I cannot trace who the actual person is - it will cost about  £350 and little chance of any return - albeit Ebay and Paypal gave him accounts in the name of Jason Young

He has deleted his mobile and whatsapp number and emails bounce back

Interestingly Ebay have finally refunded 100% of my selling fees - circa £500 - so that is a positive - they look at this as helping - which of course it does.

So I am still out £4000 from the sale but less on cost price of product.

I have moved on and sold other stuff through Ebay to cover the shortfall, I cannot waste unlimited man hours and mental effort to chase this fraudster as the amount is not high enough to get tracing agents etc involved with possibly no return so I would be paying the bills. If it was a lot more of course I would.

As the naysayers pointed out from the beginning Ebay, Paypal and the Police won't help.

Spending £1000's on lawyers and waiting for the financial ombudsman etc is a fools errand in this case.

So a very painful experience and a warning to all from a real life scenario, many people have recited chapter and verse on the pros and cons of Ebay seller protection and why it should have been covered in my case or was not covered and my experience is you are left on your own to sort the problem if a 3rd part financial institution gets involved, and in my case with no realistic prospect of getting the product or money back. In police words the buyer is 'in the wind'. If I was genuinly not so busy and had actual businesses to run I would throw the time at getting some resolution. From what I have learned so far that would be very difficult with a high possibly no return after a lot of costs on my side. So pyrrhric action on my part.

We move on, I still buy and sell through Ebay, but gawd am I extra careful on every transaction. Some day I will refuse a deal which may be genuine as I will always remember My Young and his fraud against me and think it may be happening again.

Thank you all for your comments - many have been very useful and I know a lot more now about selling on Ebay than I did 6 months ago.

[snobbfashion]

I have been in this situation so many times. It's unbeliavable how many disonest buyers are on Ebay. They were buying expensive Moncler jackets returning used  pijiamas and Ebay was giving the money back no matter what !! 

[crash_salvage_repair]

ive also got spreadsheet of all the cases with these people so anyone makes accusations of racism can provide facts relating to why i have stopped sellign to this group, the cases dont lie and ebay sends u a spreadsheet of all cases on your account and 99% are from this group so  simply dont sell to them as they pose the biggest threat and risk to my business! current losses stand at £6000 and that doesnt include my own time spent dealing with them or the extra fees ebay are charging me as a result of these cases. 

[2004squidge]

Hi, apologies for the direct message and hijacking of his post but you seem very knowledgeable on this issue, but I've been the victim of this type of scam as previously described by the previous person. .

I sent a commercial printer via pallet fully packaged on thick polystyrene, with photo of delivery with buyer accepting delivery. 

He opened item and then reported it as damaged, I suspect he had dropped the item carrying it into house as weighs 40kg as he had asked courier to bring into which they refused as was kerbside which I informed it was.

He did a chargeback which was found in his favour, item returned to me, smashed to pieces with items missing including a brand new  toner not returned. 

eBay saying item not as described so no seller protection. 

I have the blokes photo and address so luckily not a false name unlike the original person in the post. 

Please can you advise what I should do as you seem to have experience in this area? 

Thank you in advance 

[lexusking]

Hi I am not sure I am the right "expert" to respond to this.

The issue that I understand is if a third party financial institution gets involved Ebay are very reluctant to help and the financial institution (Bank, CC co Paypal?) get their money back from Ebay and Ebay wash their hands of it and say they cannot help as it is an external chargeback they cannot do anything about. Right when my saga started people advised me of this but I ploughed on thinking I could get the money back. Unfortunately I could not.

Your best bet is to fight ebay for seller protection if you can prove the part you sent was as described and met the criteria you described and was shipped as such. If you have a photo that helps a lot. This is where my 'expertise' ends but I see not reason why your item should not be covered by seller protection if you shipped it as described and can prove that. As long as you can prove it raise a case with ebay and keep fighting. Or you could try a claim from the courier ? Hope this helps. Thanks

[2004squidge]

Thank you, I appreciate your advice and any help, just trying to avoid wasting time from your lessons learnt. 

All along eBay reassured me (took 5 weeks ) although the charge back was  financial institutions doing and it was completely out of their hands I would be protected by seller protection.

Once decision was settled against me they changed their tune and said the item 'not as described' and fell outside seller protection. I spoke to high leadership in eBay who just said read the seller protection guidance.

This seems such a grey area and loophole for anyone to do and claim to fraudulently claim and keep goods which my buyer did. 

I think as you right said needs lobbying to MPs press etc as it's such a un fair system 

[lexusking]

Obviously from a standpoint of losing 1000's of pounds I agree but it's the power of Paypal and the Credit Card companies vs Ebay - the financial institutions are bigger.

So Ebay allow the chargeback and don't want to then take it any further as they have in effect lost the money as well.

The seller protetction is fine in theory and I have had cases in the past found in my favour correctly, but this one I lost when Paypal took the chargeback.

If I had more time and it was for a higher amount I would take it a lot further but on balance it would cost much more to pursue and do what you (and I thought as well) suggest

So unless a Post Office Horizon type group is formed, and bear in mind they have not had all their promised payouts completed even now after all the publicity, TV series and court findings, honourable sellers will lose out to the fraudsters becuase it's and easy system to manipulate and claim, and most sellers I imagine, and I unfortunatley fall into this catagory, write it off as it's too time consuming and costly to get a resolution in any realistic way. So it almost becomes a cost of selling.......shops write off a percentage of their GP to shoplifters  - the Police have no interest and it's a cost of having a shop. This seemingly unjust situation is the same.

It could be fought and changed as anything can be but at such a massive time and financial cost most sellers would not consider it worthwhile.

A friendly MP may help or a TV investigative expose by a serious reporter but as I am not married to either or have one in my circle of friends or family it's far fetched thinking 🙂

[johnwash1]

I don't understand how there can ever be adequate protection for all parties in a high value transaction.

The seller could send a faulty part, then rejected by the buyer, who returns (INAD), for a full refund.  All as it should be.

The seller may send a good part, damaged undetectably in transit (vibration, static, EMP), the buyer returns it, gets his refund, the seller has a worthless part.  Tough, I guess that's the risk of distance selling and the seller has to suck it up.

The seller may send a good part, the buyer returns a damaged part and keeps the good one.  Seller is defrauded, but how to prove it beyond doubt?

Where should people sell high value items to minimise risk?  Clearly not on ebay, but is there anywhere else?

[lexusking]

There is no other market in the UK like Ebay - Gumtree is, well Gumtree - certainly no good for high value items apart from cars. Facebook marketplace is full of scammers all day long. Ebay rules the roost as an auction site and should protect sellers more if they are genuine. It's pretty easy to tell if someone has been a seller for years and has 100% feedback and are they going to risk everything for a few hundred pounds or even more? - very unlikely. But the buyers can find ways of scamming and do. I have had 4 or 5 serious cases over the years, all found in my favour I must add by Ebay, but the outside financial institution involvement seems to negate the seller protections put in place.  In some other countries there are other strong online marketplaces but Ebay is king in the UK.

[crash_salvage_repair]

can u get proof from the delivery company that they delivered it in perfect condition? if so then take him to small claims court as it was delivered in perfect condition so anything after delivery is damaged caused by him., most pallet compa nies take pictures of the item being delivered and ive yet to have anything damaged on a pallet. 

[crash_salvage_repair]

yes i agree with you that there is no other mkt place like ebay worldwide for my industry they defo have cornered the mkt for used carparts, but what ive learnt if you sell for 1/2 the price on fb to collection customers and factor in possible loss and selling fees youare not far off 1/2 the sale price. and to top it off as a result of these fraudulent cases ebay started to charge 4% for high case numb er fees, when your selling 15-20k a month that comes to alot, now i simply dont sell to any of a certain group (cant name them for obvious reasons) i also dont sell high value to cheap areas, for example had a buyer in liverpool by £230 injector i had a feeling there was gonna b a scam but gave benefit of doubt and guess what he returned back a different injector, then checked hs address council estated address , sp now will just check the persons address when sellin high value items  if there living in a cheap area will just cancel or cancel offer and block them, you go by your sales data so if youve been ripped by ppl of a certain group por ppl living in cheap areas u just stop selling to them simple. i have the spreadsheet sent by ebay which directly stated which ppl have caused my 4% extra fee charge so can directly relate  there ripoffs to my business sufferin financial loss.

.

[themidnightcaller]

I was planning to sell some expensive items, via collection bacs or cash payment but the

forthcoming changes have nixed that for me.. A buyer can in theory pick up an item,

charge back through their card company, keep the item and be refunded..

[atozstopandshop]

From my point of view ebay is helping the most,buyers not sellers. I had an issue with an return ,basically the buyer has send it to an wrong adress and not to my adress. As long as on the tracking is marked as delivered ,ebay is pushing you to refund the buyer. I had been in touch with them,I had explained them the situations and instead to check properly the tracking they put me to raise an investigation on ROYAL MAIL. 

What a waste of time. Instead to focus on business the passing you through Royal Mail. 

Basically if the customer refund even an empty package and is marked as ,,Delivered'' the case will be in buyer favour.
On top of that I got even an defect as I had the shame to put ebay and step in . 

What do you think about that ? How is ebay encourage us to sell on their platform ? There must be sellers with expensive items,and guess what E bay will gonna do the same.

[2004squidge]

Yes I have a photo with the scammer at the side looking at the pallet and his front door open. Package unopened. There is no way it was damaged on a pallet with 2" of polystyrene underneath the item which was strapped and shrink wrapped. 

Small claims court here I go !

[crash_salvage_repair]

make sure you send a "letter before legal action" prior to court proceedings as courts like to see you tried to resolve the matter prior to issuing proceedings, and send 1 copy recorded delivery another normal delivery with proof of postage so if he refuses the recorded delivery letter u have proof he received it with the normal letter, then give around 2 weeks for a reoly prior to issuin proceedings and state all evidence you have

if he ignores it then is summoned to court, you are sat on a table infront of a magistrate , they see this day in day out and are highly experienced in certain parts of law, so family case u will get a magistrate who has sat in 0000s of cases involvin families, so can easily spot a liar or fraud, 

i also recommend if your runnin a business join fsb, they charge 150quid a yr for unlimited free legal advice and other stuff  and 1 call easily pays for that , they call u within the hour 24/7 365, your gettin advice from proper solictors, as the country is run by laws not rules/ terms or conditions or policies 

i cannot express how many times theyve helped in situations were cpy's/ government bodies/ councils  think there terms/ polices/ rules  are the last say, dont think so , country is run by laws nothing else, the advice is invaluble for what your paying, there are many "legal instruments" to catch frauds then leave them with scars lasting yrs as no1 is above the law! 

[honeyvintagecurios]

I have just read through this thread after looking for something else 😪  How terrible this happened to you, its so unjust! After finding out the man was using false name etc I would have reported him to the police for committing fraud. He will have opened up bank accounts etc in false names, financial fraud is a serious offence and it won't just this he will have done. So please report him it will take very little time, other people will do the rest.....

[cbr2012]

Citizens Advice have not given and do not give legal advise for at least 16 years.

So don’t waste your time with them.

Clearly no one goes to Citizens Advice except me because everyone thinks they help you in any way with legal advice.

Technically they do they say we cant help you, you need a solicitor