Promoted Listings Changes - You Must Be Joking, eBay

[superchallenge]

Email from eBay this morning. 

If I read it correctly, from 24th June, if you use promoted listings and ANYBODY clicks on the ad one time...if the item then sells to ANYBODY ELSE within the next 30 days, you get charged as if the first guy bought it.

That means that if Bob in Scotland clicks an ad and doesn't buy, but Steve from Wales rolls in 29 days later and finds the item in search and buys it without clicking on a promoted listings ad, you get charged because Bob clicked it almost a month ago.

It's all well and good saying "You'll still only pay when your items sell" eBay, but that isn't the point. We pay for promoted listings in order to help find A BUYER, not a browser. If somebody comes in and buys an item organically, then the ad hasn't done its job and we're not paying for it.

We'll be removing all of our promoted listings campaigns later today, as this starts in 32 days, which is extremely underhanded. The reason being that there's a 30-day attribution window, so if Steve clicks on one of our ads this Sunday, on June 24th when Bob buys the item without clicking an advert, we'll get charged.

[ett1954]

A business seller can claim it back as a legitimate expense as it will accepted as part of the fees the way eBay invoices it.  However they would have to be registered for, and submitting, a self assessment to HMRC.

A private seller is not a business so how could they claim it back, and who from?

[lord_and_lady_m]

I've had a chat with chatgpt - obviously may not be factually correct but enough to question this abhorrent idea from ebay. Particularly those of us that sell lower priced items. We will have our tight margins eaten into for no reason. If Joe bloggs clicks on my promoted item today, and Sheila Smith finds it organically in 29 days times, then Joe has cost me money. What if Ben, Sheila and Raj all buy in 29 days time. Has Joe cost me 3 times?

• UK advertising law (and Australian, EU) generally requires clear, fair, and timely disclosure of fees.

• eBay’s terms likely include clauses letting them change fee structures with notice — but whether ~30 days is “fair notice” could be debatable, especially when the change sweeps in clicks from before the effective date.

• You might have grounds to raise a complaint with the UK Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) or the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) if you feel the terms are unfair or misrepresented.

[ett1954]

"but whether ~30 days is “fair notice” could be debatable, especially when the change sweeps in clicks from before the effective date." - But does the change effectively start from the declared date or 30 days prior?  Do we know?  this is something eBay need to clarify unless I have missed it.

dave@ebay , kat@ebay , marco@ebay   Can someone please clarify?

I notice that the user agreement now contains the following statement under fees: "We may change our fees, or introduce new fees from time to time by posting the changes on the eBay site or via the Messages section of My eBay 15 days in advance or, in the case of fees payable by buyers, without any advance notice. "  I am sure this used to be 30 days for sellers.  Most British institutions (Banks, Building Societies, phone networks, Royal Mail etc.) generally give a 30 day notification of a fee change.  Consumer Rights Law requires an "adequate period" of notice to be given and whilst a figure is not quoted 30 days is generally considered the norm.  I note the legal requirement of 30 days for a cancellation without cost remains in the user agreement.

[knit-in-styles]

I too have switched all mine off. Now wouldn't it be good if EVERY seller on eBay switched off Promoted Listings, then they would get zilch extra revenue. Mind you, many of my PLs end the 30 day listing with zero views. In the past I have searched keywords, exact titles etc of items I have promoted and they have failed to return in the search results so makes me wonder if kind of pointless really.

Plus, I am sick and tired of when I look at a listing (even my own) seeing other peoples listings advertised on my listing so yes it would be fantastic if everybody took a stance and switched off PLs.

[art2own]

Just shows how much of a scam promoted listings have always been. Their so confident in this open fraud they just made it all official and public.

[ventexclutches]

Another question, does this mean that sellers using both Promoted Listings General and Promoted Listing Priority (PPC) will be double charged Ad fees for a sale?

For example using a listing that is being promoted using both campaigns:

Let's say Bob clicks on the listing in the Promoted Listing General slot in the search results and doesn't buy the item. In 29 days time Mike clicks on the listing in Promoted Listing Priority (PPC) slot, will the seller be paying both the General Fee and the Priority Click fee?

Historically on Promoted Listings a sale from a buyer who has only clicked an ad once would have never resulted in two ad fees being applied. This is because the eBay algorithm separated sale attributions depending which campaign was used. This however is very unclear now.

Can anyone at eBay clarify this? I'm trying to work out to which extent I should be winding down my Promoted Listing campaigns over the next few weeks and need to know the new sale attribution rules.

[valueaddedresource]

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@ventexclutches wrote:

Another question, does this mean that sellers using both Promoted Listings General and Promoted Listing Priority (PPC) will be double charged Ad fees for a sale?

---

@ventexclutches  this has always been true since eBay introduced Priority cost per click ads - if you enroll an item in both a Priority cost per click campaign and a General cost per sale campaign, you would potentially be charged both ad fees in some scenarios.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/ebay-advertising/promoted-listings-overview?id=5295

Multi-campaign strategy attribution

It is possible to see a sale attributed and reported as both a general and priority sale if you have the same items promoted using both campaign strategies.

Priority ads will incur a charge each time they are clicked, regardless of whether that item sells. For general ads, the ad fee is based on the ad rate of the purchased item at the time of sale.

[nigel_paul_wright7557]

I dont promote anything in any way.

My profit margin doesnt allow it.

If I add the promoted cost to item it doesnt sell.

[ventexclutches]

Thanks for the info - but even then a double charge wouldn't have applied if the buyer clicks a listing in a Priority (PPC) Ad slot as their only click prior to the sale. The double charge would only apply if the buyer clicks a listing in a General Ad slot, doesn't make the purchase then clicks the same listing but in a Priority (PPC) Ad slot within 30 days, then buys the product.

This is what the "possible" means in "It is possible to see a sale attributed and reported as both a general and priority sale if you have the same items promoted using both campaign strategies." .

The way the Ad slot structure works means that a single click would never result in double attribution as the slot is either Priority, General (or Organic), it can't be more than one.

I can back this up as some of my products which are promoted using both campaigns don't attract any General Ad fees (for some reason the algorithm doesn't place them in the General Ad slots), but are successfully generating attributed sales through the Priority campaign, which suggests the algorithm is putting them solely in the Priority slots.

With this change though a lot of sellers can assume every item promoted using the General campaign will attract the fee (as it only needs one click per month), so in terms of how much we actually pay for Ads goes from this:

Priority: Priority Fee

General: General Fee

Organic: No Fee

To this:

Priority: General Fee + Priority Fee

General: General Fee

Organic: General Fee

Which frankly makes me want to cancel my Priority campaign if anything as if i'm spending (for example) 10% of the sale price in ads for each campaign type, this suddenly becomes 20% for ANY product promoted using the Priority Ad campaign as they will ALL be double charged, rather than just those in the scenario in my earlier example.

Is anyone else using both General and Priority campaigns? What will you be doing going forward if this change doesn't get scrapped?

[dch2112011]

I don't think the changes are all bad, reading what ebay have announced 

Before the change general promoted listings used to make payments for advertising  up to 30 days after the campaign finished for any one who clicked on them during the campaign - the ad rate was calculated on the rate on the day the click was made not the purchase.

The change reads as if once the campaign finishes anyone who buys the product even if they or anyone else clicked on it during the campaign does not bring an advertising charge 

The charge will be as at the date a purchase is made during the campaign not when it was originally clicked 

  a pointer to those that think ebay promoted listings are hidden by ad blockers - they generally are not hidden they are integrated into the site and most ad blockers do not recognise them as ads !

[custom-giftsuk]

I would like to say eBay cant double charge - ie General fee (fee on sale) plus Priority fee (PPC) if an item is clicked on then sold but........ it's eBay - they'll try and wangle some kinda way to get everyone to pay both. 

As I see it now, you are going to pay a fee in someway, unless you have zero campaigns - either general fee or priority fee. 

[dch2112011]

The two seperate statements are seemingly quite clearly aimed at two different aspects 

Paying for promoted sales 

The ad fee is charged when a buyer purchases the promoted item from a general ad that any buyer clicked on in the most recent 30 days.  

Another way of looking at this statement would be that if no clicks were made on a promoted listing within 30 days of a purchase being made  then there would not be a charge for advertising

 during or after the campaign ?

The actual charge criteria is explained in this part of the statement 

The item must be promoted at the time of click and the time of sale. The ad fee is based on the ad rate in effect at the time of the sale.

Reporting of sales not charging of sales  attributed to the campaign to the seller  

eBay will report an attributed sale from a general campaign when a buyer purchases the same item that was featured in the ad that was clicked on by any buyer in the most recent 30 days.

The statement by ebay is fairly confusing but seems to point to what I have deduced but equally I could be interpreting it incorrectly it needs better and clearer explanation from ebay before we all jump to the wrong conclusions

[dch2112011]

Indeed ebay are pushing towards priority campaigns - offering guaranteed top promoted spot in search  which is going to drag a lot towrds PPC 

What it doesn't tell you is that if every PPC campaign gets top promoted spots is how much time per  % do you get at top spot or how many different top spots are there based on search terms - category etc,  or even how many different search results will be shown to different users of the search engine ?

Another interesting statement is ebay saying that if you general promote a listing the promotion will not show if the promoted listing does not show higher in rankings than your listing without promotion - which is being sold as a positive - (as long as sales avoid fees when the promoted listing is not being promoted )

[iceblue_uk]

Since most business sellers have to permanently promote their items to
survive, scrapping the 30 day after campaign ends rule will be little or no
compensation for the total loss of organic sales that could well be the
result of this new plan. For most, I would imagine that that certain
percentage of non-promo sales is the only reason that general promotion
costs are even affordable at current selling prices. At a time when buyers
are poorer and sales are declining, ebay forcing sellers to increase prices
is madness.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Since most business sellers have to permanently promote their items to
survive,

I'm sorry, but this is a fallacy.

This is what Ebay would have you believe and not something based in fact.  As the more people that believe this, the more that they spend on advertising.

Ranking on Ebay is based on multiple things, but one of the biggest of them is the number of items sold.

If you can maintain a volume, then you are virtually guaranteed to be high ranked on search.

But regular updates and renewed listings will also bring you back to the top.

I have actually hardly used any kind of advertising now for a long time, yet I still manage to sell items......

[dch2112011]

Indeed a very valid point, we sometimes use promotions to gain traction then reduce the % as sales gather momentum until we switch them off as we gain spot one or two under the search terms we target.

The more an item sells the more ebay push it - volume makes fees for them so they want top selling items to continue to sell - regardless of promoting  - but you need to use the tools available - titles - item specifics  etc to compete at the top - I guess promotions might make a marginal difference for a seller who doesn't pay attention to optimisation

Unfortunately the way ebay are gearing promotions PPC is their aim - a lot of sellers who don't optimise listings and keep tweaking them are going to be giving any profits away in ad fees - 

I am not even sure general promotion is going to be effective in making sales - certainly not for volume business sellers -  

[iceblue_uk]

That really depends on what you sell and in what volume. What you describe
is certainly not our experience, nor that of competing businesses in
multiple categories. If we don't maintain visibility with promotion, we
lose market share and then the algorithm ensures that sales gradually erode
until the listing is dead.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Someone did an experiment on this a little while back.

I'm sure the thread still exists.

I would recommend that you find it and give it a read.

Basically what happens when you are promoting, is that you get a lot of promoted views, alongside the organic.  When you stop, you may find that initially you will lose a lot of view overall.

But, they bounce back quite quickly and though the total views is less, the organic will stay the same.

And these views are far more important, as they are much more valid.  They generally result in considerably higher clicks and obviously sales.

Yes, what you sell will make some difference.  But frankly, not that much at all.
You are competing with business, that are selling the same things.  So actual volume is not something to compare, but volume compared directly to your competitor is.
I have a couple of listings that have items sold in the hundreds on a different account.

I have not promoted them for a very long time.

They are currently a little more expensive than other sellers, yet are still in the top 3 of a search.
Every 90 days or so, they will get updated or changed in some way, but that's about it.

Everyone seems to fall into this trap of "promoting or no sales"!  It really is not true.

It does have it's place, but that is not permanently switched on.

[valueaddedresource]

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@lord_and_lady_m wrote:

I've had a chat with chatgpt - obviously may not be factually correct but enough to question this abhorrent idea from ebay. Particularly those of us that sell lower priced items. We will have our tight margins eaten into for no reason. If Joe bloggs clicks on my promoted item today, and Sheila Smith finds it organically in 29 days times, then Joe has cost me money. What if Ben, Sheila and Raj all buy in 29 days time. Has Joe cost me 3 times?

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@lord_and_lady_m as you've discovered, multi-quantity sellers will be hit very hard by this change because yes, in your example, the seller would be charged the ad fee for the orders from Ben, Sheila and Raj as well.

As long as the item number remains the same and the item is still actively enrolled in a Promoted Listings General campaign, all it takes is one click by anyone on the ad for that item and that sets up all subsequent sales of that item for the next 30 days from that click to be charged the ad fee.

And of course if at any point during that 30 days, there is another click on the ad for that item, that timeframe then extends 30 days from that click....and on and on we go.

That's one of the reasons why sellers in Germany experienced an overnight shift to 80-90%+ of their sales being attributed to PL ads immediately once this attribution model went into effect there.

In essence it simply turns PL General ads into a de facto "voluntary" FVF increase, but sellers get to decide how much extra they'll pay (with a 2% minimum).

For many years it has been common advice that sellers should not list anything on eBay they can't afford to lose - and unfortunately with these changes now we have to add in "don't list anything you can't afford to pay ad fees on."

With this new model, sellers basically have to assume that the ad fee will apply to every sale for the purposes of setting pricing and/or offer negotiations with the increasingly rare organic sale just being a "bonus" if/when it happens.

[tribalgiftsuk]

Trying to process this new idea on promoted listings standard and what is the best way to go forward.

What i would like to know is how this will work with multi quantity listings - say i have a listing with 8 in stock and one person clicks the add and doesn't buy and then i sell 3 to organic sales. Will the 3 all be seen as promoted sales or will it be 1 click = 1 promoted sale regardless of who clicked on the ad.

Either way its dreadful but will be worse if you have multi listings and multi sales and included in the 1 click.

This is all as clear as mud! 

I hope for clarification from the moderators soon.

I just saw your post above @valueaddedresource  which answered the question but i will like that confirmed by the moderators.