A simple way to resolve the "private" business seller problem

[vonchief]

A correctly registered business can obviously not compete with those using private accounts to avoid eBay fees.

With eBay seemingly taking no action on these "private" business sellers, genuine business sellers feel they have no option but to open a private account and also avoid eBay fees.
I am certain this is not what genuine business sellers want to do.
eBay would not last very long either if all business sellers did this.

Surely if eBay removed the item condition of "new" for private accounts, this would go a long way to resolving the problem.
Simply grey out "new" for private sellers when they list an item.
They could still use "new other" if they have new, unused & unwanted items.

Anyone who is selling new items is a business.
If they want to list new items on eBay, the only option should be to open a business account.

[555njp]

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@date80211 wrote:
Will you say how businesses trading on private accounts are acting illegally?

I did state on post 129, but basically a private account doesn’t allow a business to make it clear to buyers they are a business, or to show contact details. Both are required to conform with UK consumer laws. It is also an offence to mislead the public into thinking they are buying from a private individual when you are in fact a trader or business. Doing so would be denying them their consumer rights (right to return etc.) and a business has much greater responsibilities regarding ‘fit for purpose, safety compliance etc.’ of goods sold.
I suggest you take a look on .gov.uk under “UK consumer protection, distance selling regs and returns”. And “consumer protection from unfair trading” where all should become clear.

If you or I or anyone else can open a private account and so avoid fees, why would any cost-sensitive business not do that?

Risk. Because if Trading Standards did take an interest they could shut the business down or impose fines. Equally eBay could close the account and permanently ban the member if they wanted to. And, a savvy buyer if they exercised their rights under the distance selling regs 2015 could also return the product(s) in any condition, without a reason 12 months & 14 days after the latest delivery date for a full refund.
The 2015 DSRs fully explain this option should a business deliberate try to mislead a customer  or deny them their rights under the regulations.

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[therenewalworkshopltd]

What your talking about is actually different to the reasons for having a business account.

Reporting to HMRC is a new thing that has just been brought in.

However, whether you are trading or not, as long as you are reporting your income to HMRC, there won't be an issue from that side of things.

The issues with using a private account for business purposes, is that by doing so, you are breaking consumer law.  ie. things like not displaying contact information etc.

The problem is, that this kind of thing has been going on forever on Ebay, as there has never been any accountability for trading and not reporting.

I do actually think that the reporting to HMRC is a good thing overall.

But because Ebay have changed the way they are charging, ie giving free fees to private sellers and now the reduced fees with the buyer fee.  It has made it so that business' cannot compete with these "private" sellers, as straight off, they have a massive discount on fees.  And that is why, there is now such a hoohaa about it all.

I have no issue with anyone wanting to make a bit of extra cash, but it should not be at my, or any other business sellers expense!

[date80211]

Sorry to say, that seems to leave many out in the cold.
When I get unneeded, unwanted, unwelcome, or simply badly fitting Birthday, Christmas or other gifts, would your rules not insist I could offer them only as a Business seller?

[vintique*violet]

There is no restriction for private sellers to sell personal unwanted gifts  ( as long as they are eligible to be sold on eBay) -it is even included on the HMRC website 😉 

[therenewalworkshopltd]

I presume that you are talking about the "New" condition for private sellers.

I agree that it should not be available to them.  Simply because, once bought at retail, it is no longer a new item.  Things such as warranties are not transferable, which is why they are no longer brand new.

Therefore, there should be a category such as "As New".  This would solve a lot of problems.  But certainly not all by any means.

[santlache_sales]

EBay could also permanently close your account if they suddenly decide to police this practice.

This sadly isn't going to happen any time soon and would need (yet another) new eBay department opened to deal with the problem. But when and if they do, what are the parameters eBay would follow to decide who is a genuine business and who is not ?

Income would clearly be the first aspect they look at and they are already acting on that, perhaps stock being sold and new re-listed on a regular basis, or large amounts of one stock a private seller simply would not have. Who knows ???

But the simple fact is this is once again a problem of eBay's making, like so many of their policies over the last 15 years, which has also caused eBay to multiply the CS staff over and over to deal with these newly invented eBay problems, to the point they now likely have tens of thousands of staff more than they had 15years ago.

I am convinced the company is now run by backward people who have absoluetly no idea what they are doing, and are in fact doing their best to totally screw it up.

[vintique*violet]

Not all new items have warranties and New other covers this...the use of  as new or like new was  prohibited by eBay  - in fact it used to highlight if you put as new or like new in the listing description, I am unsure if this has changed. 

Genuine private sellers usually give a full description and list whether it was an unwanted gift and new, unopened, unused  etc in their listing descriptions. 

Again because of " masqueraders" it appears everyone wants to penalise genuine private sellers. It is tiring... Let's look at those businesses who fall below standard, send shoddy goods in plastic bags, do not mention faults, sell fake goods, offer returns but do not honour  etc. etc.  etc.There are thousands who really should not be in business. 

[parsley2003]

Agree i've sent an extra toy to someone, extra postcards, wrap things nicely answer questions day and night and now this. I have just taken all my listings off and will now concentrate on the alternative which is just like the good old days if i sell nothing at least i won't have the endless worries and misery of being here

[vintique*violet]

Me too - treated my buyers as I would like to be treated ... just like kindness; wrapped nicely and safely for transit, good communication, posting promptly etc , cost nothing - well maybe or  little extra something would but it is cultivating a " service"  your reputation and genuine repeat buyers. People forget that there are " bad" buyers out there too, I suppose I am lucky that over 17yrs I have had lovely buyers and I am thankful for that. 

[parsley2003]

Most of mine have been good only blocked 100 in 21 years. Had two bad ones right after New Year which started as it has continued, a disaster with no end 🙄

[the_book_seekers]

How times have changed. I've collected books since I was a child and I started on ebay selling off excess copies from my collection. I get a lot of books for presents and after a couple of years I'd got about half a dozen books I was never going to read. I put them up as new - unwanted gifts - and  soon after ebay sent an email 'inviting' me to upgrade to a business account. This was followed by a phone call from ebay which was perfectly polite, but it was clear that I would have to upgrade to a business account if I wanted to continue. 

Back then there were advantages to having a business account, I didn't want to lose my account and I was happy selling so the decision wasn't too difficult.

[vintique*violet]

The selling of personal possessions and collections whatever their condition do not make you a business... I understand why you moved to a business account  especially if you are continuing to sell new books for a prolonged time ... however eBay are pushing this on private sellers with personal items using their policy without evidence. Incidentally over 10 + years ago I had discussions with eBay regarding business and private accounts and was advised that business accounts were a choice... so what is anyone to believe particularly as it has become more apparent that some CS agents do not actually know what they are talking about and/or  UK Law. The whole platform is beyond comprehension at the moment. 

[theelench]

Don't forget those that mis-represent themselves as private buyers when buying collectables for their businesses.  From recent replies here it seems that a business misrepresenting itself as a private person is a crime in itself.

Perhaps we should start pointing out which businesses do this and questioning why they're breaking the law and ebay's rules when we come across them in whatever niche areas we find them in.

It ain't that hard to do.

[vintique*violet]

I am unsure whether it is a mis-representation for business sellers to hold a private account also and purchase from there for their business... it would be the same as buying from another platform or wholesaler, or auction house etc.  or have I misunderstood what you are saying? 

[the_book_seekers]

The selling of personal possessions and collections whatever their condition do not make you a business...

This all happened about 18 or 19 years ago. I knew the above, but it wasn't how ebay saw things at the time and once a decision is made it's nigh on impossible to get them to change it. I don't remember there being an appeals procedure as there is now (however bad that procedure might be).

There have been examples of genuine private sellers being caught up in the conversion of accounts, but I have to say the majority of the complaints I've seen have been from those operating as businesses. 

[theelench]

That sounds like where I am now, it's just so much more relaxed, still has instant payment, doesn't charge FVF on P&P and best of all has a search that works and helps buyers find what they write in the search box.

[vintique*violet]

How has that affected you if you were not running business then? I am assuming you are now, or are you still offloading your own personal collections? 

[the_book_seekers]

Selling personal stuff will come after I've finished with this account. At some point I'll have to think about down sizing the collection, but not just yet.

[date80211]

Obviously that's a form of misrepresentation and as above, it should be equally obvious that pathetically simple avoidance tactics make it unreasonable for the real-world authorities to deal with that, even if their costs would be reasonable…

However, all the doubts here are about the real world.

eBay can make whatever rules it chooses, and by simple commercial contract impose what penalties it chooses.

That clearly does give eBay the simple right to tell anyone trading on the platform not to pretend to buy as a private person and then sell through a business, even if that would be legal in the real world. That has nothing to do with the local law in any real-world jurisdiction.

I suppose that boils to my firm belief that while in the real world, many complicated nuances might cloud the issue, in a virtual world governed first and foremost by the contract law expressed your user agreement, it's really very simple… you break the rules; you get thrown out… which leaves the only problem being whether you can persuade eBay even to take an interest, let alone to care!

[date80211]

Obviously that's a form of misrepresentation and as above, it should be equally obvious that pathetically simple avoidance tactics make it unreasonable for the real-world authorities to deal with that, even if their costs would be reasonable…

However, all the doubts here are about the real world.

eBay can make whatever rules it chooses, and by simple commercial contract impose what penalties it chooses.

That clearly does give eBay the simple right to tell anyone trading on the platform not to pretend to buy as a private person and then sell through a business, even if that would be legal in the real world. That has nothing to do with the local law in any real-world jurisdiction.

I suppose that boils to my firm belief that while in the real world, many complicated nuances might cloud the issue, in a virtual world governed first and foremost by the contract law expressed your user agreement, it's really very simple… you break the rules; you get thrown out… which leaves the only problem being whether you can persuade eBay even to take an interest, let alone to care!