A simple way to resolve the "private" business seller problem

[vonchief]

A correctly registered business can obviously not compete with those using private accounts to avoid eBay fees.

With eBay seemingly taking no action on these "private" business sellers, genuine business sellers feel they have no option but to open a private account and also avoid eBay fees.
I am certain this is not what genuine business sellers want to do.
eBay would not last very long either if all business sellers did this.

Surely if eBay removed the item condition of "new" for private accounts, this would go a long way to resolving the problem.
Simply grey out "new" for private sellers when they list an item.
They could still use "new other" if they have new, unused & unwanted items.

Anyone who is selling new items is a business.
If they want to list new items on eBay, the only option should be to open a business account.

[sunshinedior67]

No because private sellers can  sell items New. People have things in new condition or brand new. 2nd hand doesn't mean it has to be used

[johnwash1]

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@sunshinedior67 wrote:

No because private sellers can  sell items New. People have things in new condition or brand new. 2nd hand doesn't mean it has to be used

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You're right, private sellers can sell items New.  I have a few items myself amongst my listings which are new, though they're years old and not things that have a best before date.

Private sellers who have all items new, and a record of selling the same thing many times, and all in much the same category...  they tend to attract business sellers gently asking why they think they're not running a business.  Of course in some cases there may be a rational explanation, which is why they should do no more than gently asking.

Myself, I think the private sellers who in reality are running a 'business' in the sense that they buy or make to sell, but only do it on a very small scale should be cut some slack as long as they allow change of mind returns (a legal requirement for businesses).  It's the ones that we all recognise, with thousands of listings, doing many hundreds of pounds a month turnover, they're the ones that should be made to change as a priority.  Strange that ebay haven't bothered over the years.  Business sellers pay more, so even if ebay don't care about rules it would benefit their bottom lines.

[the_book_seekers]

There is some slack. HMRC has the £1000 trading allowance for the kind of seller you describe. 

[parsley2003]

No once a business you cannot go back to private

[optica-techna]

16% ebay fees, 7.5% flat VAT fees ,plus book keeping/reporting fees, Business sellers are going to have to be very pickey what they can sell on eBay when competing against Private seller offers. 

[dalek_khan]

Hi, as an example, what I don’t understand is that there are private sellers on here selling brand new and sealed steelbooks, hundreds of them for lots of money. They now don’t have any fees to pay so they’re laughing. Surely it just encourages more sellers to do the same.

Why does eBay allow this, it’s so obvious the private seller is  ‘trading’  as a business yet nothing is done about it. It you were buying and selling on the same account they would see you as ‘trading’ and message you about becoming a business. Why is it ok to ‘buy in’ from outside eBay but still trade within it with no consequences. Really unfair on actual business sellers! 

Then you have the new buyer protection fee (another mis-step in my opinion) when you already had the 30 day money back guarantee. I think eBay are screwing themselves over trying to compete with Vinted and Facebook Marketplace. 

[date80211]

Despite your passion, will you rephrase both Question and Exposition?

How could 'private business sellers…' be a problem, unless eBay arbitrarily chooses to give
them a status different from other 'business sellers…' or 'private sellers…'?

If anyone can open a private account and so avoid fees, why not do that? I'm sure you're right; that's not what genuine business sellers want to do but why not go with the pragmatic?

Removing 'New…' for private accounts might resolve your problem, but how then could I advertise my unwanted Birthday or Christmas presents?

Why should anyone have to bother with 'New other…' - which I confess, I'd never noticed?

If you'd like to turn that round and make the exception from 'New…' something like 'New business/ retail/ wholesale…' please do, but why distort the language?

'Anyone selling new items is a business…' only if you forbid me from advertising unwanted Birthday or Christmas presents.

[the_book_seekers]

If anyone can open a private account and so avoid fees, why not do that? I'm sure you're right; that's not what genuine business sellers want to do but why not go with the pragmatic?

It's not a question of being pragmatic, it's a choice between being legal or illegal. Businesses trading on a private account are acting illegally. 

[555njp]

I’m sure many have considered it. But most will conclude the risks are simply not worthwhile.

Not only would you be breaching UK consumer laws so risk Trading Standards imposing fines or shutting you down but EBay could also permanently close your account if they suddenly decide to police this practice.

But possibly the biggest issue would be that by trading illegally on the wrong account you would almost certainly (by the unsuitability of a private account) be denying consumers their rights under the 2013 distance selling regulations (returns).

Any attempt to do so allows a savvy customer the right to return goods to a business, for any reason whatsoever, in any condition, 12 months and 14 days after the latest delivery date for a full refund. 

Just not worth all the risk in my opinion, but as a very small business I like to do things properly and stay the right side of the law.

[wyntersemporium]

I’m not a reseller though. I buy charms in to make my own jewellery as many of us buy charms from overseas 

[vintique*violet]

Selling unwanted personal items is clear under the online selling rules ( HMRC) and includes the selling of  unwanted gifts with no specification whether these can be new unopened or partially used i.e gift boxed items whereby a person may only use one item.  eBays criteria is specific, new or new other, used etc... 

New items are not exclusive to Business sellers, you are correct, and for anyone to actually believe that by removing new items from genuine private sellers would make any significant difference is not looking at the greater picture which is where businesses are masquerading as private sellers and often on a huge scale...and that is an issue for eBay.  Also there are thousands of business sellers who sell  New, and often those items are not new at all and they are getting away with it by adding... sprayed once, bottle pump activated, box opened, used once and expiry dates either not mentioned or are expired ( often found at the bottom of the listings description) ... these should not be in the New category whatsoever. There are many legitimate businesses not adhering to consumer law eBay polices and many private sellers who go above and beyond not only in their honesty but the packaging and timely delivery. 

In eBays new terms and conditions it mentions non-professional sellers - whatever that means or connects to I am unsure, and forget which part as it can be an overwhelming read, but it is there. I wonder if this will be a new introduction of a different type of account? 

[technthread]

Vinted Pro sent me this message yesterday. They are on a different page to eBay at the moment, I am presenting this without comment as this confuses me:

[ett1954]

Vinted is a Lithuanian company with probably as little knowledge about UK consumer law as eBay appear to have.

[technthread]

Maybe all platforms need to sit down with HMRC / Trading Standards and agree a uniform way of doing things. In fairness to Vinted, you can trade on Etsy and Depop without contact information visible and all sorts of differences.

In practice there are so many grey areas with this topic. 

[555njp]

Yep and if Vinted Pro is solely for business sellers then hiding those contacts breaches UK consumer laws, but of course no one cares.

Are Trading Standards going to look and “have a word with Vinted”, No.

[technthread]

I really have difficulty believing 3 platforms have gone rogue without taking legal advice that they are safe to do so. 

Anyway I’m not wanting to argue about it just putting that out there. 

[555njp]

That would make sense but look at how differently the platforms are dealing with HMRC sales reporting and GPSRs.

Uk trading laws are surprisingly rigid. You cannot sell anything in the course of a trade without making that clear to the public. It’s because the consumer rights when buying from a business are much more stringent than buying privately. Businesses no matter how small have to exercise a duty of care to ensure product is safe, fit for purpose and complies with relevant standards, even if sold secondhand. Any faults have to be clearly advised.

Showing contact details is do with returns in the event of a problem that you cannot always expect the selling platform to be able to deal with (I.e a warranty claim on something bought on eBay occurring after 30 days). You need to be able to contact the business directly.

But of course, it is also illegal to ride a privately purchased electric scooter on the pavement or road, but plenty are doing just that, simply because whilst the law exists, it isn’t being policed. To name just one example.

[ett1954]

"In practice there are so many grey areas with this topic." - there are no grey areas in the legislation; they are quite specific and courts will have no difficulty in interpreting them if required.

[date80211]

Will you say how businesses trading on private accounts are acting illegally?

If you or I or anyone else can open a private account and so avoid fees, why would any cost-sensitive business not do that?

I agree, eBay should not allow such evasion or misrepresentation but how is the real problem anything but the fact that eBay sets such sloppy rules?

[dalek_khan]

I wouldn’t say they are acting illegally, eBay bought in the free to sell and now they’ve decided to add protection fees for buyers, a whole other topic. I understand people want to list their unwanted ‘new and unopened’ gifts and that is not the issue, it’s more the thing that private sellers can buy-in brand new and sealed items outside of eBay and sell them on a regular basis and now pay no fees and yet according to eBay your sales information will be sent to HMRC if over 30 items or £1700 has been sold within a year period. Surely more sellers would breach this very quickly. 

The HMRC website states that any items purchased to be resold for profit is classed as trading and need to do a self assessment for tax purposes. Why would you spend and buy in new items to resell if you didn’t think you were going to make a profit?  EBay said it would have to send sellers a report of their sales prior to sending it to HMRC. I’m just curious as to if anyone has had one of these reports or any follow up from the HMRC. I don’t see it as illegal trading but tax avoidance may be an issue.