Why is ebay supporting animal cruelty through its sale of fur coats?

[emc1477]

Namely the array of fur coats and other garments made from chinchilla, rabbit and fox etc. I am amazed ebay is supporting one of the cruellest industries on the planet. I assume it has no sense of ethics. Not only does auto-fill assist the search for these products, but also items specifics for "Material" and "Fur Type" are present to aid the seller! To be clear these are not sold as antiques, but new products.

Is ebay unaware of the cramped cages and squalid conditions in which these animals are so often kept on "farms" or are they only concerned as a business with legal compliance because the animals are not on the endangered red list?  Then again, how else could a trader have got away with selling endangered animal fur coats made from leopards, ocelots, wolves and lynx before police charged him in Sept. 2018.

[bravergrace]

Oh, and here's a brief list of the products for sale on eBay which I, personally, disapprove of:

- hair colourants, wigs, face creams and hair restoring products (ageist)

- cosmetics and other beauty products that encourage people to "patch and paint and dress like idle stuff, as if the lord God had not made them good enough".

- wedding dresses and wedding rings - I'm with Oliver Cromwell here: marriage is one thing, but the devil dances in a wedding ring.

- health supplements and over-the-counter remedies (mostly unproven, just encourage hypochondrics to waste their money and deter genuinely ill people from seeking scientific medical advice).

- religious, New Age and other spiritual pictures, crucifixes, books, rosary beads (encourage idolatry and superstition).

- clothing and trainers with the designer's name on the outside (encourage boastfulness and the shaming of poor children).

- expensive cars, speedboats, and motorcycles (bad for the environment and pander to the lowest instincts of people with more money than sense).

- pet toys, bird cages, indoor rabbit products, dog coats, fish tanks (encourage the keeping of animals in unnatural and unhealthy confinement for the selfish pleasure of their owners).

- DVDs of just about any 20th century television comedy programme or romantic film (encourage racist, sexist attitudes, and demeaning to women and ethnic minorities).

- New furniture, white goods and shoes (discourages recycling and repair and increases landfill).

In fact, I have an almost infinite capacity for disapproval of anything that I personally dislike.  Should I be campaigning for eBay to ban these things?  Or should I take other people's opinions into account?

[northy.says.no.to.bullying]

They cant ban wedding rings.......I collect them

[bravergrace]

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@northy.says.no.to.bullying wrote:

They cant ban wedding rings.......I collect them

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I suppose it might be regarded as a good form of trophy hunting - encouraging people NOT to wear them.

[bobandcharlies]

Cannot agree more law or no law Morality has to take president and e bay could easily stop this trade on their platform they have the choice - naively I never realised it was allowed on e bay - Thanks for highlighting this practice I shall contemplate a well worded letter of  disagreement with this policy - not that it will do much good - an online petition might though ? 

[northy.says.no.to.bullying]

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@bobandcharlies wrote:

an online petition might though ? 

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No it wont.

56,000 people in the uk signed one seven years ago.....ebay are still considering their response

[bravergrace]

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@bobandcharlies wrote:

Cannot agree more law or no law Morality has to take president and e bay could easily stop this trade on their platform they have the choice - naively I never realised it was allowed on e bay - Thanks for highlighting this practice I shall contemplate a well worded letter of  disagreement with this policy - not that it will do much good - an online petition might though ? 

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 It always worries me when people start by saying "Law or no law".  That translates as "I'm above the law that applies to everyone else".  That is not a healthy or democratic attitude to take.  The law matters.  It it what distinguishes us from animals - that we have a law that applies across the board, and don't allow one person's personal preferences to dictate what other people are allowed to do.  

If there's cruelty in farming, that should be stopped.  I'm sure everyone agrees on that.  But banning the use of by-products of farming is a different matter.  The answer is not this "four furry legs good, four leathery legs bad" mantra.

The question is, whose morality should take precedence?

The people who disapprove of fur farming?  So a rabbit fur coat or a lucky rabbit brooch would be OK if the animal was a wild one, not a farmed one?

The people who disapprove of fur altogether?  So even if someone eats the rabbit, or if it died a natural death, they think the fur should be buried rather than used?

The people who disapprove of animal products altogether?  So do we ban leather shoes, belts, suitcases, coats, and woollen skirts.

I don't see why, if my pet bunny dies of old age, following a long and contented life, I shouldn't use its fur to keep me warm.

And if I buy a rabbit from my local poulterer, I don't see that it's morally superior to righteously throw the fur away after I've eaten my rabbit stew.

These are all moral choices, there is a wide range of opinions on the subject of farming, and I really don't see why eBay should allow any holier-than-thou, louder-than-thou animal rights petition to dictate whether other people are allowed to pursue a perfectly lawful trade - the buying and selling of lawfully made clothing.

[northy.says.no.to.bullying]

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@bobandcharlies wrote:

Cannot agree more law or no law Morality has to take president

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How has that worked out in america?

[*guinevere*]

I would be satisfied if they banned the sale of fur from China. That is where the worst of the worst comes from. 

By anyone's standards the skinning alive of cats, dogs and other sentient animals is shockingly cruel and  barbaric.

[bravergrace]

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@*guinevere* wrote:

I would be satisfied if they banned the sale of fur from China. That is where the worst of the worst comes from. 

By anyone's standards the skinning alive of cats, dogs and other sentient animals is shockingly cruel and  barbaric.

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Are you seriously suggesting that this "skinning alive" is common?

Apart from PETA - an organisation which appears to believe that anything, including truth, is secondary to imposing its beliefs on the rest of the world - I don't think anyone seriously suggests that this happens regularly.  There are obviously a few sick and sadistic people in any walk of life, and I'd not claim these things NEVER happen, but I don't think it would be a good business plan to grab 100 cats and try to skin them alive.

I've never actually tried to skin a mink or similar, but I'm pretty sure I'd not choose to do so while the animal was alive.  It really wouldn't be practical.  Even Marsyas had to be tied down pretty comprehensively.

[northy.says.no.to.bullying]

Here's the petition from 7/8 years ago

[bravergrace]

Thank you for the link.

In general terms, I do prefer to avoid using imported farmed animal products, because I think welfare standards around the world are probably inferior to ours (for instance, Norwegian and German tethered cattle-stalls are pretty grim, and let's not think about foie gras).

But actually to impose my views on ethical farming methods on other people - by petitioning neutral third parties (like eBay) to prevent other people from selling German butter or Norwegian cheese, that's a different matter.  I wouldn't consider that I had the right to do that.

Petitioning the governments of the countries with the unfortunate farming methods would be surely more useful, rather than petitioning a company which is NOT involved in the production or cruelty, and cannot influence animal welfare matters.

[*guinevere*]

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@bravergrace wrote:

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@*guinevere* wrote:

I would be satisfied if they banned the sale of fur from China. That is where the worst of the worst comes from. 

By anyone's standards the skinning alive of cats, dogs and other sentient animals is shockingly cruel and  barbaric.

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Are you seriously suggesting that this "skinning alive" is common?

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It breaks my heart to say it but yes, in China it is. It is the default method of obtaining fur. I have never investigated where they get the animals from but I suppose they could farm them. 

If you don't believe me you only need to Google it. You'll need a strong stomach, especially when you discover how they keep them still while skinning them. 

[bravergrace]

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@*guinevere* wrote:

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@bravergrace wrote:

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@*guinevere* wrote:

I would be satisfied if they banned the sale of fur from China. That is where the worst of the worst comes from. 

By anyone's standards the skinning alive of cats, dogs and other sentient animals is shockingly cruel and  barbaric.

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Are you seriously suggesting that this "skinning alive" is common?

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It breaks my heart to say it but yes, in China it is. It is the default method of obtaining fur. I have never investigated where they get the animals from but I suppose they could farm them. 

If you don't believe me you only need to Google it. You'll need a strong stomach, especially when you discover how they keep them still while skinning them. 

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Actually, Googling takes me to a small number of unpleasant videos, and a great many accusations of lying on both sides - one side starting from the basis that every farmer is a torturer manqué, and the other from the basis that everyone with qualms is an unprincipled and woolly-headed hypocrite with only a nodding acquaintance with the truth.

It seems likely that fur is primarily obtained from farmed animals for large-scale clothing production - I wouldn't think it could possibly rely on the odd discarded pet or a system of trapping.  And an industrial slaughter process really couldn't be run on a basis of trying to avoid teeth and claws.  It would surely be impractical and time-consuming, compared with knocking the animals over the head first.

[*guinevere*]

To be honest I find the whole fur industry a disgusting cruelty based institution that has had its day. 

China has no animal welfare legislation whatsoever, blimey when you look at the rights of the human polulation there you cannot be surprised to learn that there are no laws in place to protect animals.

But for you to suggest I am lying, which you are, and to try to trivialise a very dirty and barbaric industry when I've spent the best part of my life fighting against animall abuse and trying to educate people against buying Chinese fur products because of the terrible cruelty involved in obtaining it is, quite honestly, very offensive.

I am not about to find videos or articles to corroborate my post because I want to sleep tonight. 

I don't have  much time for Peta myself, preferring to do my own research, which I have done, and I know what goes on on a day to day basis but please don't ask me to research it for you.  And please don't try to give other members the idea that Chinese fur is ethical.

[bravergrace]

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@*guinevere* wrote:

To be honest I find the whole fur industry a disgusting cruelty based institution that has had its day. 

China has no animal welfare legislation whatsoever, blimey when you look at the rights of the human polulation there you cannot be surprised to learn that there are no laws in place to protect animals.

But for you to suggest I am lying, which you are, and to try to trivialise a very dirty and barbaric industry when I've spent the best part of my life fighting against animall abuse and trying to educate people against buying Chinese fur products because of the terrible cruelty involved in obtaining it is, quite honestly, very offensive.

I am not about to find videos or articles to corroborate my post because I want to sleep tonight. 

I don't have  much time for Peta myself, preferring to do my own research, which I have done, and I know what goes on on a day to day basis but please don't ask me to research it for you.  And please don't try to give other members the idea that Chinese fur is ethical.

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I'm not accusing you of lying, and I am sorry to have offended you.

I think you may, however, be generalising and concluding that one problem - the particular problem of poor skinning procedures - is more common than it is.

I expect that China, like most countries, has many shockingly bad farms, some good ones, and a large number in between.  And of course you are quite right animal welfare regulation there is unlikely to be a priority.

Personally, I rarely wear fur, and I would be most reluctant to purchase modern fur from China or most other countries. 

However, my 1940s rabbit-skin gloves (made as a by-product of the meat trade and Digging for Victory), should not be outlawed, and I still say it would be better to try to influence the Chinese governments about animal welfare, than to expect eBay to ban lawful trading.  eBay doesn't have ethics.