Where did it all start?

[cee-dee]

Religion that is?

I was prompted to think of this by a post on the "artifacts" thread with a word that jumped out..... Satan.

Religions often seem connected with the sky, sensational natural events or "something up there" so did it all begin with Man thinking that things "up in the sky" or catastrophic events were controlled by some celestial beings?

Religions that have survived for some thousands of years seem to be somehow connected with vaguely similar beliefs. And then it starts to get complicated..............

Most know how The Serpent (Satan in disguise) tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the Forbidden Fruit but how about The Peacock Angel otherwise known as as Shaitan, or Satan?

God is supposed to have forbidden Adam to eat the Wheat but when The Peacock Angel visited Adam and asked him if he'd eaten the grain, Adam is supposed to have replied "No, God forbade me." The Peacock Angel is then supposed to have persuaded Adam to eat the grain which angered God.

Now The Peacock Angel was supposed to be the first of seven Archangels created by God but fell from favour because after telling the Archangels never to bow to any being, when God created Adam from dust (!!) and was told to bow to Adam, The Peacock Angel refused saying that God had already told him (he's male then?) not to bow to any being. God threw The Peacock Angel in to Hell where he remained for (this is where it gets a bit vague) variously 7,000 or 40,000 years after which time he either quenched the fires of Hell with his tears or filled seven jars with his tears with which he quenched the fires of Hell after which God forgave him and reinstated him.

Now what's all this got to do with Satan or the artifacts thread? Only that I mentioned Göbekli Tepe and that people who revere The Peacock Angel recognise some of the symbols found on some of the stones at Göbekli Tepe so have a think about that convoluted story eh?

[suzieseaside]

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, of course, and we have had many threads about it in which (inevitably) people disagree according to their particular faith or whether they are atheists, humanists, or whatever.

But the topic of the OP is 'where did it (religion) all start' and presumably why did it and how did beliefs evolve.  It's not about what we 'should' believe in or why we believe in a particular and relatively modern religion.   It started long before all these.

[cee-dee]

All your posts come over as though you're trying to "teach", as if we're in some sort of JW learning class, we're not.

As to the "word of god", what you're speaking about is the word of Man. God wrote nothing down, he's supposed to have spoken "through" someone (and that goes for all religions). As to "god's will", again, it's nothing to do with god, it's the will of Man or the attempt of some men to influence everyone to go a particular way.

Now I'm not saying that all those "ways" are wrong or bad, in fact if the World stuck by some of those "ways" it would be a much better place!

As to learning, I'd like to learn where your god wrote the Bible? The Bible? I asked you which one? All of the Bibles (and the other holy books) were written by Man all claiming that it was the word of their god.

It's quite obvious by reading the numerous writings from history that religion evolved over time and took with it bits from here, there and everywhere but nowhere will you find anything written by god and what has been said and written in the name of god is only the word of Man. The fact that some of the things written were done with the best intentions (at the time) is neither here nor there.

[joamur_gosof]

look at god as a direction the human race is heading  a path to its own saviour....look at religion as human race interpretation  on how to achieve that ...look at the devil as human nature .  Blueprint to science if ever I saw one but as a doctrine its trouble.

Thanks again to cd here on looking up some really interesting early evolution roots......prophecy in writings and in art, early science etc is uncanny .. 

It is very difficult to work out if evoloution did indeed influence the mind so much we are on a pre destined journey  or if it is developing into something else.

Where indeed (science day ) did it begin.

[joamur_gosof]

footnote or what caused it to begin ,even

[Anonymous]

CD,

You want to know where it all started. When and why people started believing in God or Gods.

You are apparently doing a lot of research into the issue, so surely you have come to some conclusions by now.

What is it that keeps people, who obviously do not believe in God nor have any inclination ever doing so, asking these kind of questions. What is your fascination with religion? Do you really want to know? Is it just curiosity? Do you think anyone or anything is ever going to give you an answer that satisfies you?

I can give you a very different answer than some of the more religious people on here, but it will all end up in the same questions from you....."can you prove it, where is it written down, where are the scientific facts?"

So we'll go round in circles as usual. You are right and you are wrong. Same old same old.

If you start a thread like this, you will inevitably invite those that are religious to give their input, and I'm sure you expected that that could happen...surely you are not that naive.

[joamur_gosof]

I dint think there is anything wrong with thought provoking debate.....On the point of proving things happen..well I thought suzie  was quite on the nail of evolving theories ,and thats basically all that hard fact science of today is as we all know proving something can be disproved further down the line;

Finding the answers to key human elvolve such as religious belief ,is a step nearer understanding how the future may pan out....and the big question is then how will the human race respond...which is exactly what religion was trying to do .imo

[joamur_gosof]

footnote ..so by my own reasoning CD is the most religious poster on here 🙂

[Anonymous]

Thought provoking debate...............yep nothing wrong with that............except when the thought provokes, according to some,  the "wrong" input...................

Do you really  feel that understanding how religion started will help us in the future? And if so, in what way?

[cee-dee]

I think that if people are "allowed" to probe the origins, follow the history so far as it's written and work out the shortcomings, they might, just might start to question the ultimate objective of those who won't "allow" any of the above three points.

If people get away from blindly accepting what they're told to believe, we might, just might begin to put an end to the lunacy going on in the World today.

When people believe that the Universe was created after the World was created and all the creation was glibly covered in a few sentences, you really do have to ask yourself what Planet those people are from.

If the World (and the Universe) is only 6,000 years old, god must have stratified all the rock, put the fossils in the ground and somehow manipulated the light coming from far, far distant Galaxies to make it look like the light took billions of years to get here?

There is a way to twist the six days so that they more or less agree with the age of the Universe but doing that forgets that the Earth isn't as old as the Universe, believers might like to think that the Earth was created first by saying that In the beginning, (the first day) god created the heaven and the earth.... then saying Let there be light, and there was light (the second and third day was spent creating the waters, trees, plants) but for the fourth day they're saying that god made two great lights, the greater light for the day and the lesser light for the night and the stars..... That's saying that the stars were created after the Earth?

If people spent a bit longer seeking out what was actually written and who wrote it (NOT who was supposed to have said it) and worked out that blindly accepting something was wrong, the people of the World might well be spared the idiocy of fighting over some greatly flawed ideology.

[joamur_gosof]

I do harry yes..in the way that what caused the human phyce to look away from right in front of it to beyond the unseen unknown and then tried to explain this..... that is what I see religions original intention as being a way to understand the unknown......

.this however corrupted over the eons has led to prodding and poking at the unknown that evolved the sciences that ultimately will decide the entire fate of the planet...............

....sooo was this implanted into the hume phyce and by whom and why are  the questions that delving may eventually uncover ..whether it was a spaceman or a martian alien or a dream spirit or just an evoloution cause and effect knock on, it all can appear to be a destined path of the human to do ''the noah'

Which is kinda the first story ever written for children to learn.Not learned it yet though .

[joamur_gosof]

CD s last paragraph is bob on as they say

[Anonymous]

"If people get away from blindly accepting what they're told to believe, we might, just might begin to put an end to the lunacy going on in the World today". Blindly accepting what we are told happens constantly. Religion doesn't have the monopoly on that. So if we want to change the world we have to examine a few more things than just religion.

[joamur_gosof]

Could not agree more Harry.....but  within this thread,then its a bob on statement also.

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@Anonymous wrote:

"If people get away from blindly accepting what they're told to believe, we might, just might begin to put an end to the lunacy going on in the World today". Blindly accepting what we are told happens constantly. Religion doesn't have the monopoly on that. So if we want to change the world we have to examine a few more things than just religion.

---

The other side of that same argument is that if we were all told the same thing and blindly accepted what we were told then there would be "an end to the lunacy going on in the World today".

It all really comes down to a matter of trust and in who we put our trust.  CD has quoted many scientific 'facts', such as the stars were created before the Earth.  Of course neither he nor I know that for a fact - we trust those we have read or heard say this is the case and their explanation appears to be logical so we accept it on trust - in reality of course neither of us know this for a fact.

[**bustysinclaire**]

"All your posts come over as though you're trying to "teach", as if we're in some sort of JW learning class, we're not"

I do understand what you are saying and why CD. I don't really know any other way of puting down in writing what I believe to be the truth in answer to anything you ask. As in one scripture in the Bible (we believe the translation we use is the most accurate from the original scrolls) to go and make disciples. So yes I suppose it can be classed as a form of teaching, or informing. Although I can relay the information I cannot make people believe it, that has to come from them but if they are not aware of the "facts" (figure of speach there) then how can they/you decide for themselves/yourselves.

I am only giving my opinion of what I believe in, and when I read what your opinions are take them as that, I am never offended or annoyed by them you are entitled to your beliefs and opinions CD.  It is just a discussion. CD

As to the "word of god", what you're speaking about is the word of Man. God wrote nothing down, he's supposed to have spoken "through" someone (and that goes for all religions). As to "god's will", again, it's nothing to do with god, it's the will of Man or the attempt of some men to influence everyone to go a particular way.

Again as to the word of God, I just believe in the explanations I have learnt. You are correct there is no writing by God's hand himself as he is a spirit creature but the words and meanings are his written for him by men. as I have said before, rather like a secretary writing dictation. 

Now I'm not saying that all those "ways" are wrong or bad, in fact if the World stuck by some of those "ways" it would be a much better place!

I appreciate that CD, thank you. We are not bad people, we believe in Non violence, clean living, peace and love among all.

As to learning, I'd like to learn where your god wrote the Bible? The Bible? I asked you which one? All of the Bibles (and the other holy books) were written by Man all claiming that it was the word of their god.

I'll try and answer your question  as best and honestly as I can, I have learnt that THE BIBLE  there is only one (old and new testament - 2 parts of one book) penned by 40 men all of different occupations over  1,600 years. THE BIBLE  being the collection of writings inspired by God by these men. There have been many translations of these writings into what people call the bible and many different religions adding and subtracting parts of it. We do believe the translations we use are the nearest to the originals and that nothing is subratracted or added or changed. Jehovah God actually gives instruction it is not to be altered.

As for where it was written, then I would answer that as wherever the men were residing at the time (Geography not my strong point) so I say Middle East.

CD if you are genuinely interested then this book, "All Scripture Is inspired of God and Benificial" is a factual book, just giving details of which men penned the writings in the bible, time spans, who wrote which parts etc. It is more about the History and Geography rather than the religion and Gods instruction, if you know what I mean.

[electric*mayhem*band]

Anyone watched Joanna Lumley's 'The Search for Noah's Ark' ?

Should be retitled, 'Myths, Legends, and Fables'.

Although meant to be serious - absolutely risible.

[astrologica]

'Peace and love among all'.......unless you happen to be homosexual...then you are cast out on your ear and shunned.

[cee-dee]

Your Bible began in Hebrew and many of the Bible "stories" were poached from there, miss-translations and miss-understandings and all.

The thing is, the Hebrew bible was put together from a mixture of ancient writings and things Moses said plus later additions.

Since then there have not only been many additions, there have been (deliberate?) omissions too. Are you trying to say that all the people who had a hand in writing all these things were given that (mis)information direct from god? If so, how was it communicated?

Now just because someone goes off on a lonely walkabout and thinks about things or falls asleep in a cave and has enlightening dreams doesn't mean they've been instructed by god. What they thought or what they dreamed may have been about "doing good" or "being good" but it doesn't constitute the word of god. If it does, a great many thinkers or prolific dreamers have also heard the word of god.

The Five Books of Moses (the Torah) are pretty well known but how about Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Ruth, Kings, Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastics amongst the twenty-odd books of the Tanakh, do many people know about those?

As I've said before, people have picked and chosen what to incorporate in their religion, all claiming it to be the word of god but ask yourself, if someone, a decent soul, stood up today and came out with all sorts of things saying it was the word of god, would you believe him? Why not? You believe all sorts of things which were written long ago in a time when people were illiterate and ill-informed, liable to believe any explanation of the inexplicable. If a "bolt from the Blue" just happened to strike someone dead, the explanation given way back when wouldn't be the same as for someone so struck today (well, there were actually two today).

Now it was realised a while back that a form of explosion could be created from Uranium but it was more or less dismissed for a while as not producing anything really worthwhile. But then, one day, a bloke had a flash of inspiration and concluded that what was required was a chain reaction in order to create an explosion of (then) unimaginable force. After realising that an enemy was stockpiling Uranium, it was concluded that they were on the same track of trying to create an Atom Bomb so the work done so far towards finding out how to create a chain reaction was given to the Americans to try to "get there first". Now, did that bloke who had the flash of inspiration hear the word of god? Although on the one hand the results of his flash of inspiration killed a lot of people, it also saved an awful lot more. God works in mysterious ways?

[joamur_gosof]

Flash of inspiration alert...

Thats a good one, as what does insire thoughts of world changing magnitude , in some but not others ? 

[Anonymous]

Interesting thought J.

What about this.....Maybe we are the creators of this world and we are God so to speak. Collectively we create the world we live in today. Some have great ideas and some don't. The result of creating something will be the creation of more other things, sometimes to counteract or sometimes to improve on what was created. The world would stand still if there would be no contrast, nothing to make us rise to the occasion.

Just a thought.