What's your answer to this?

[cee-dee]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/calais-migrants-face-catastrophe-153936990.html#3RP7sMo

The situation can't go on?

Not only can the stowaway situation there not continue, the constant flow of people trying to get to Europe and/or Britain cannot continue either.

Those people should be told that there's nothing for them except a life in a refugee camp. They can't become a "normal" member of society in their target country because they can't speak the language and those that get here (legally or illegally) don't seem to want to bother to learn either. They can't do anything useful except work that's already over subscribed so their only work is going to be an exploited modern form of slavery.

They're looking for a short-cut to a way of life that's taken a couple of thousand years to achieve and they're many centuries behind.

It's high time they were "educated" about the facts of illegal immigration and shown what has happened to many who went before them and all efforts should be made to dissuade and/or prevent them starting out in the first place rather than dealing with them en route or at their destination.

[******lynda******]

"It is vastly cheaper to provide clean water to Africa than it is to wage war, so lets get the water sorted. North Africa is also doable tourism alone could and should pay major dividends so lets give them some stabilityand help yjem to have pride in there own achievements."

Let's give them stability? How? They fight Each other....stability is not in our gift.

Look at Yemen, now. 21 million people in need of aid because of genocide.

[fallen-archie]

Lynda that conflict is driven by two factions from one religion. I don't know how you sort the Sunni Shia problem.

[cee-dee]

OK, so someone wants to know how I know that very few of them could prove they were at risk in their own country?

If they were at risk and wanted assylum, if they applied properly and were proved to be at risk, they'd be granted assylum? They manage to trek thousands of miles to get here, couldn't they trek somewhere nearer to their country of origin and seek assylum? It's a flippin' long way from Somalia to the UK and why would someone well used to "warm climes" want to come to a much colder country that they're not used to rather than heading for (for instance) South Africa or some of the Gulf states?

They don't just want assylum, they want it here or in some "attractive" country not because of reasons of safety, it's for reasons of perceived economics! Also, they don't apply for assylum properly as soon as they get here as they're supposed to, oh no, they find some sort of "exploitative" work and cost us loadsa money in rooting them out.

As to other points made about "the West" destabilising countries either by "regime change" or past Colonialism, that wasn't the topic, start your own thread?

As to some illegals making good, fine, the old saying is "The exception proves the rule" and if you want to take up that line, start your own thread?

The idea was to seek suggestions for ways to stop this idiotic migration so how about getting back to it?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Any possible solution will cost the West so much that living standards will fall and no politician would put forward a policy that would result in that.

The only realistic way to deal with the problem is to accept that migration can't be stopped - it's been going on for millenia - what makes anyone think it can be stopped now?

Far better to accept that migration will continue and rather than spending time and money trying to stop it, (about as effective as Canute trying to hold back the tide), let's put efforts into dealing with the problems it may cause whilst at the same time taking advantage of the benefits.

[bookhunter2007]

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@******lynda****** wrote:
A myth indeed, but value of money is relative and if those in far off lands believe the myth, and to them, if they hear the amounts, compared perhaps with their own expectations at home, it may indeed sound generous, along with accommodation, they may come over in expectation of a better life.

A trickle can be helped easily...a flood is overwhelming. Are we assuming that thousands of disappointed people are just going to wait quietly till we can sort them out with homes etc. That could be a bit disingenuous.
I know we have more than we need. I see people complaining about austerity and I despair. We have an obesity problem...how does that equate with austerity. We waste tons and tons of food. Most of the complainers have more than we had when we were young, and certainly more than our parents. Tax thresholds have been raised. Interest rates and inflation are lower than I have ever seen. My husband paid 20% rates on his mortgage. My parents didn't own their own homes till they were 35 and 45, respectively. I was 46.
Yet now we say children should be able to get on the housing ladder as soon as they want to leave home.
Is there no end to the sense of entitlement? Is that the standard we are to fund in African countries to stop the flow of people?
Here, although there are people struggling, and they need more help, a lot seem to think that losing a foreign holiday is hardship.
*ducks*
Maybe some Brits should go to where these migrants come from and see what austerity and hardship really are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes money is relative, but so are living standards. I don't think dismissing "austerity" that easily is very just, as it has hit different people in different ways.  It's worth remembering more people have died in this country as a result of Austerity than terrorism in last few years. To be fair, i'm sure many younger people saddled with large student debts, unstable employment prospects, and little hope of getting on housing ladders look at sections of the older generation sitting on vastly inflated property prices complaing primarily about immigration - much of it based on bigotry - also feel dispair. As for sense of "entitlement" I think that began with aspects of the Baby Boomer generation, and has manifested since. As has a sense of selfishness and an "I'm alright Jack" mentality..

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@fallen-archie wrote:

You misunderstand my point completely,

I don't think I have. & this seems a bit paradoxical?

"what they need is the power of self determination and you don't get that simply by harping on about who was right and who was wrong Unless of course you have a better solution."

"Those like your Zimbabwean friend has demonstrated his commitment here and should be allowed to stay, others likewise. Trouble is when Mugabe started his rule he was racist, attacked his own economy and his opponents, lost millions in export revenues while building himself a new Palace and persecuting black and white. Our government for once did nothing, The Loons of the Left accepted his appointment for purely political reasons ad one of these days when the stories are told we will once again be painted in a negative light."

In other words, what good is it to point out this for the reason for today's debacle? AFAIK Asylum applicants from Zimbabwe are dwarfed by those from the oil wars. And Mathias was from Togo.

"You know that the question of benefits is an emotional topic especially for those living here who are dependent on them and they have a point, Statistics for the Somali community show that wherever they have sought refuge 80% never seek or gain employment and remain dependent upon the state. "

So what would your solution be for those here now?

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21583710-somalis-fare-much-worse-other-immigrants-what-holds-t...

One of the problems is that Asylum applicants are not actually allowed to legally work - which also affects the opportunity to integrate. imo it would help to have some sort of temp work visa whilst application are being considered.

"It is vastly cheaper to provide clean water to Africa than it is to wage war, so lets get the water sorted. North Africa is also doable tourism alone could and should pay major dividends so lets give them some stabilityand help yjem to have pride in there own achievements".

Agreed. Potential for sub/Sahara & solar energy production is excellent too...as long as funds are reinvested in infrastructure rather than the Cayman Islands.

Finally the BBC managed a quick interview with one asylum seeker in Calais, he was from Pakistan and was running away from the Taliban How mny left to follow him?

There are some figures here, but it's from 2013 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24636868

[******lynda******]

Fallen-Archie, that is my point. Most of the problems that drive people out are conflicts of their own, religious, tribal...they fight each other and we are powerless because that is something they have to deal with. How do we help...we just make it worse. Democracy cannot be imposed. Peace cannot be imposed.

We offer, by our standards, a safe haven from the likes of ISIS, yet families run from here to them. There was a thread when a family went and outcry that the poor woman must have been forced to go with her husband...given the lie by the latest departures of the 3 sisters who took all the children and left their husbands behind.
In the end, people are what they are...there will always be the strong who want to rule, not necessarily fairly, who want to subjugate, exploit or kill their own people. There will be those who think religious or tribal differences justification for war. Those who want territory inhabited by others. We have been there ourselves.
Famine is an enemy we can help with, but the rest... So complex.

[fallen-archie]

I agree, it is both complex and not something we alone can resolve. I just listened to the Mayor of Calais on the Lunchtime news laying into the British for disrespecting the people of Calais, In his eyes we are the guilty party ad should be doing more, Like what? I ask.

Should we unilaterally get rid of our nuclear subs and not proceed with the two Aircraft carriers? if we cut our defence by 70% we could invite lots of newcomers and live as a truly multicultural and peaceful society, is that the script for ambrosia? I wonder how many flats or houses we could build in St James Park, Hyde Park, Green Park, Greenwich Park and all that underused farmland we could become the new Taiwan. 

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@fallen-archie wrote:

I agree, it is both complex and not something we alone can resolve. I just listened to the Mayor of Calais on the Lunchtime news laying into the British for disrespecting the people of Calais, In his eyes we are the guilty party ad should be doing more, Like what? I ask.

Should we unilaterally get rid of our nuclear subs and not proceed with the two Aircraft carriers? if we cut our defence by 70% we could invite lots of newcomers and live as a truly multicultural and peaceful society, is that the script for ambrosia? I wonder how many flats or houses we could build in St James Park, Hyde Park, Green Park, Greenwich Park and all that underused farmland we could become the new Taiwan. 

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Alarmism without basis - the Netherlands for example are 50% more densely populated than the UK but have some beautiful parks.  Physical space in the UK is not the problem - it is the lack of housing and infrastructure that causes real difficulties.

Increases in population aren't directly linked to standards of living - quite the reverse.  In the first half of the 19th century the population of the UK almost doubled, (from 11m to 22m), in the second half it almost doubled again, (to 37m) - during that period there was a huge industrial growth in the UK.  In the first half of the 20th century the first and second world wars undoubtedly had an impact on numbers but the population still grew by a third to 49m.  Living standards changed quite dramatically during that period, especially in the years immediately following the two wars.  During that 150 years despite a massive quadrupling in the population infrastructure and housing grew faster.

Population growth reduced in the latter half of the 20th century, industrial production fell off and housing became a problem - living standards though continued to rise.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not the population size per se that is the problem but how that population is managed and more importantly the way in which investment in housing and infrastructure is directed.  We shouldn't be looking to build more houses in London but rather developing areas away from the South East.  London has been overcrowded for decades but nothing, or very little, has been done to tempt people away.

In many ways London and the South East demonstrate how migrants gravitate towards those areas with the most jobs - according to the latest figures employment in London is growing at twice the rate of the UK as a whole and around three times that of areas like the West Midlands - so of course people want to move into London.  The problem is there simply aren't enough houses and facilities like schools and hospitals.  It really doesn't matter where those people come from, home or abroad, if London is more attractive than where they currently live they will come.

This report by the Institute of Economic Affairs makes interesting reading if you have time,  especially pages 6 and 7.

http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Abundance%20of%20Land%20Shortage%20of%2...

[fallen-archie]

Thank you I will take the time to read the report and see if it influences my thoughts.
I appreciate having listened to many political economists as well as MPs from all parties they seem always to seek growth as the single mechanism for economic development. Following your scenario we will eventually run out of space but more importantly we could end up as the human equivalent of battery chickens. Similarly each time we build more houses we deny space for other beings and I believe we should be able too be forward whilst protecting the environment for all.
I think a change is called for and we should ultimately aim for quality of life not the overpopulation of our planet.

[fallen-archie]

Footnote
I am sure you will have been to a densely populated place, Calcutta is one that comes to mind, I am yet to meet anyone who would willingly up sticks and move there to live. Even if you drastically modernised at huge cost what would you end up with?

[malacandran]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
Footnote
I am sure you will have been to a densely populated place, Calcutta is one that comes to mind, I am yet to meet anyone who would willingly up sticks and move there to live. Even if you drastically modernised at huge cost what would you end up with?

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There's a widespread popular theory, that the people who control power, have decided to flood Western countries with immigrants.  In order to destroy Western Civilisation.  And replace it by a New World Order. 

So mass immigration into the West will continue relentlessly, until the West has been snuffed out.  Then the New World Order will take charge of the globe.

Is this theory right.?  It seems supported by evidence, as we can all see in our country.  But perhaps it's not wise to speak about it, as the police might come round, and arrest anyone saying it.

[merehazle]

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@bookhunter2007 wrote:

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@******lynda****** wrote:
On the other hand, I am always impressed by the wish to learn of the children. They want education. They could teach some of our kids a thing or two about appreciating the chances they get in education.

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I agree. However, if reading this thread is anything to go by, the same applies to adults too - Posts #1, #4, #7, #8, #9, #18, #26 are beyond parody. I'm assuming #3 is a parody. Post #19 is just plain vile.

Goods posts #10, #21 & #30 Creeky.

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 Oh these ''parodies''.

Yes, for those that are not as educated as lik wot BH is  It means: ''imitation of style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.''

Oh dear, the usual insults.   And NINE in one go.    And THREE praises in one go . He'll be pleased with that .

Oh, enjoy your day     Tat tar.

[bookhunter2007]

Yes, when posts blame climate change on “the Pope & Islam” or reduce it to simply “the yellow thing in the sky” then I think it’s fair to say those posts are “beyond parody”.

And the point about education seems pretty relevant too. It’s rather hypocritical to demand migrants be “educated” (as the OP has done) about the facts of migration, but appears quite oblivious to the facts themselves and cannot produce any evidence to back-up their claims.

I’ve pointed this out several times before - the less knowledgeable people are about migrants, the more they fear them.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/06/17/the-fewer-immigrants-you-know-the-more-you-ll-fear-them

[bookhunter2007]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
Footnote
I am sure you will have been to a densely populated place, Calcutta is one that comes to mind, I am yet to meet anyone who would willingly up sticks and move there to live. Even if you drastically modernised at huge cost what would you end up with?

---

Websites like this?

http://www.internations.org/calcutta-expats/british

[cee-dee]

I best reply to myself as otherwise I'd be covering points made by several others.

Firstly, the initial question was abut what to do about the migrant situation and very few have offered meaningful suggestions about what to do about the situation as it exists now.

The thread has been off-topic all over the place and somehow climate change has been one of the points raised. What climate change has got to do with the migrant situation I don't know but the resident sesquipedalian doesn't seem to think that the Sun is the driving force behind life on this Planet but it just happens to be so. The Planet itself also enters the fray and affects life here and also affects the climate. Rock, ice and mud (sediment) samples clearly show how the climate changed over millions of years swapping back and to between extremes of heat and cold long, long before Man appeared on the Planet.

The Japanese earthquake of 2011 shifted the Earth's axis by over 6 inches and while that's not a lot, had Man had anything to do with it there would be good reason to point the finger at him.

So, if Man is now affecting climate change so drastically, how come similar changes in climate happened millions of years before he appeared? That said, if you want to continue with climate change, please start a new thread.

These migrants are heading for the UK because it seems likely that they've been told (by using the benefits of modern communications) that the UK is the land of Milk and Honey where the fools give you money and houses for nothing. If they were merely escaping some form of persecution, wouldn't you think that the first place of refuge that they got to would have been their safe haven? Why trek thousands of miles more if there wasn't another reason?

What to do with them? Send them back.

[bookhunter2007]

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@cee-dee wrote:
The thread has been off-topic all over the place and somehow climate change has been one of the points raised. What climate change has got to do with the migrant situation I don't know

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Quite a bit. And most certainly will affect migration patterns in the future.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/03/150302-syria-war-climate-change-drought/

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@cee-dee wrote:
 

These migrants are heading for the UK because it seems likely that they've been told (by using the benefits of modern communications) that the UK is the land of Milk and Honey where the fools give you money and houses for nothing.

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Do you have any evidence of this?

This evidence suggests otherwise:

"The majority of respondents (around three quarters) had no knowledge of welfare benefits and support before coming to the UK. Most came from countries lacking well-developed welfare systems and had no expectation that they would be supported."

http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets/0001/5702/rcchance.pdf

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@cee-dee wrote:

If they were merely escaping some form of persecution, wouldn't you think that the first place of refuge that they got to would have been their safe haven?

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If you read my link above, most do. i.e. Hundreds of thousands fleeing the Iraq War ended up in Syria - Of which we are now seeing the knock-on effect of..

Also, people seek asylum in other Countries in the World. Germany for example receives far, far more applications than the UK. Even Sweden has more than double the applications that the UK has.

http://www.redcross.org.uk/What-we-do/Refugee-support/Refugee-facts-and-figures

[cee-dee]

Well if you look hard enough for what you want to see, you'll find it. Those figures in the RC link don't stack up with what's been bandied about on a variety of TV news reports and other news providers. In the sources in that page it says "Oct to Dec 2014"?

The UK received 31,400 assylum applications? How many illegals got here then?

So there's 8 million "refugees" from just 5 countries but "only" 4 million applied for assylum in the 5 countries mentioned? Where did the rest go, how many "refugees" came from other than the top five and where did they go?

Over time, I've watched TV interviews and read news reports about reasons for wanting to come to the UK and it was the reason I mentioned that most stood out. Some undercover reporting was quite specific with the "refugees" regarding the UK as a soft touch. If the other countries are so wonderful, why are there thousands of "refugees" hanging around Calais hoping to hop on a UK-bound truck? Surely word would spread that the UK didn't want them and puts many obstacles in their way. So, wouldn't word spread that they stood a better chance of free Milk and Honey someplace else?

There have been cases of illegals getting here, applying for assylum, being deported only to come back again, and again plus others who've not applied for assylum being caught here and deported 4 times. Why come back again and again if there wasn't some good reason to try to get here?

Only this evening I watched an old Cop programme where a drunk driver was caught and found to be an illegal and he'd been here a while and working so he was deported.

The clear fact of the matter is, there's illegals getting in here and they don't apply for assylum because somehow they acquire a false identity and get in to "the system".

[bookhunter2007]

I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than "I saw a bloke say something on the telly" from unnamed programmes as far as solid evidence goes.

What's next? A quote from Danny Dyer?

[upthecreekyetagain]

CD - I'm sure the most quoted reason for immigrants wanting to come to the UK is the "benefits system" - have you ever asked yourself though who it is it that is actually making that claim.

The reason I hear from those I talk to in person that have emigrated to the UK is that they came here because they spoke English and for the work, freedom and British system of fairness and freedom.

Of course you can find individual case that support your ideas for why immigrants want to come here in exactly the same way individual cases of benefit abuse can be found amongst the British population.  Neither of which proves anything more than taking the reasons I mentioned which were given to me as proof of why immigrants in general want to come to the UK.

So if we can't be sure one way or another of the motives of those coming to this country we are left with simple common sense. 

It is beyond belief that someone would risk their life, spend many thousands of pounds and suffer incredible hardship and uncertainty to come to the UK for a few pounds in benefits!  This is why I treat with scepticism claims such as you make.

The real scandal of the benefits system is the working tax credit - this allows employers to underpay their workers in the knowledge that the government will top them up to a level that someone can live on.  It is these payments together with the other benefits that receipt of tax credits qualifies claimants for that make up the vast majority of 'benefit' payments to immigrants, not those paid out to those who aren't working.

Profitable companies should not be permitted to pay employees at a level that requires a subsidy to make it a living wage.

[upthecreekyetagain]

As a side note to this general discussion I find it ironic that at the same time as worrying over the poor and the unskilled trying to get into our country we are welcoming, (encouraging), the rich and the doctors, nurses, scientists, engineers and other professionals with open arms - exactly the sort of people who have a chance of changing their home countries for the better.