What if?

[cee-dee]

OK, so no-one wants to argue any more but what if.........................

A couple of years back referendum was called about either staying in or leaving the EU and the majority voted to leave. Since then arguments have raged back and forth and the remainers are agitating for another referendum.

What if they had another vote and this time the result was to remain BUT, then the leavers started agitating for another making claims for this, that or the other? Would the remainers claim "We had a democratic vote so that's that, we remain IN".

We had a democratic vote before though? The result of that was to LEAVE so if a second vote went the other way would any notice be taken of leavers wanting yet another?? If not, why not?

Shouldn't a vote on something be IT as regards any result not a cause for those who didn't like the result to agitate for another? Where does it end?

By that reckoning it could result in a parliamentry vote for a constituency which ended in a close vote for one person then having those opposed to then claim it was "close" so they demand another go? How many "go's" do you want?

[baybizz]

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astrologica #150:

One thing that puzzles me...the population of the UK is well over 66 million. Can someone explain why we have to import people to be doctors, nurses, carers, fruit and veg pickers, etc. We have enough population to find suitable people.And we hear it constantly in the news.."but we NEED these people to run the NHS etc etc." We don't need them... we need to train our own people. Truth is.. the government likes immigration, in spite of so called targets to reduce it.

---

Agreed. The wealth per head of a country doesn't depend on the size of its population. Otherwise the countries with the largest populations would automatically be the wealthiest per head:

cia.gov - world-factbook/wealth/rankorder

[astrologica]

Population Density per square mile.

France.....100

Italy....197

Germany....235

United Kingdom....650.

[joe_bloggs*]

By the way archie,best to post a link to your evidence of Corbyn being an anti semite ? It doesn't help your arguments to repeat lies !

[fallen-archie]

By the way Joe please could you answer my questions otherwise we are at risk of this being rather one sided! Please also try countering my arguments by throwing some light on to the question of ante semitism as an example what makes you so sure that JC is not?

[j_uk643]

I didn't actual say when I was born mikos ,
Yes I knew all that last year ....they do say once one reaches a certain age there is a tendency to repeat things 

I don't eat big Mac's lol. I have had The odd kebab up green lanes or was it wood green? , no perhaps Southgate if that's any help
Unless you were born in the US and spent some years living there I'm afraid the idea you have met more Americans than I is simply also incorrect 
Bit like that fact free USS Forrestal story lol

I was invited to Cyprus s few years ago but apparently it was full  of Russians washing their roubles 
Still i might venture a trip to some third world place like Preston soon 

Really the need to import doctors and nurses should be self explanatory . 
Basic medical training is ,5/6 years another two as junior doctors , 8 years, then if you need a consultant add another ten
You can hardly fill that void overnight, a similar situation with nursing although the training period is less
The BMA is one of the most effective trade unions around and arguably the number of medical school places hasn't kept up with demand 
The younger generation have a much higher burden than baby boomers did paying for the retired in their day
Proportionally there are far more old people for the young to support so increasing immigration in this group would help lesson that burden 

Ah yes the Tweety birds lol
Wealth as economically defined is partly a function of items validated in the market place 
Tweety birds do not generally have a value in the market place though you could put a notional value on those, similarly space, sunlight etc but this would generally be considered extreme loony left by most, but not it seems by all, who prefer to see themselves on the right lol
Abbot btw did attend Oxford not quite on par with spam:distribution 
You could and others have made the Tweety bird case, but it's hardly orthodox conservatism and would need a pricing policy 
I doubt it would gain much support realistically when it's crunch time regardless of how many nature programmes are on
People want their TR 6 , even if they don't get them, their gizmos and ,72inch telly especially in Blackburn I seem to recall

The resources question might present some short term issues but it's no different from general population growth of which there are no restrictions so by Malthusian way of thinking we should have grown into disaster way before now
Yes certain physical space is finite but since most of us live with that limitation already it's not of huge concern 
We may find the oceans take back some of our space way before we outgrow it by population expansion if at all

[joe_bloggs*]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
By the way Joe please could you answer my questions otherwise we are at risk of this being rather one sided! Please also try countering my arguments by throwing some light on to the question of ante semitism as an example what makes you so sure that JC is not?

---

It's up to you to prove Corbyn is an anti semite as you stated,As i say repeating lies does your arguments no good,It's become very clear to most rational thinking people this was/is an orchestrated campaign against a party and especially it's leader who is probably the most principled anti-racist campaigner in Parliament and has has fought lifelong against it,The MSM seem to turn a blind eye to May and the tories sucking up to anti semites like Orban and other bloodthirsty regimes

[fallen-archie]

Typical leftist response there Joe, what has Corbyn actually done to benefit the U.K. you won’t answer you simply throw everything back in my face, all I have asked of you as the font of all knowledge on the Corbyn front is what evidence there is that the assertions are in fact fabricated, why not answer me for a change?

[j_uk643]

Generally speaking when one makes assertions, the  burden of  proof is on those making the claims

If they can't it's likely because they have none, or think they are somehow above all that lol

For  example...If one makes a claim a football manager  is dismissed because he won too many games, - pc gone mad etc  etc, no evidence offered, it would seem rather an odd claim to make

Checking the DM etc suggested he wasn't dismissed for that at all

Reserve position....well he was sacked for making inappropriate  comments to a  female player -still pc gorn mad

Check FA website...not true they specifically say  they dismissed that initial  claim,  & he was dismissed for other reasons

Response....well they might have said  that  but  I don't believe it!

cue fake news 

[astrologica]

The UN Global Migration Compact.

This agreement is due to be signed by the U.K. On Dec 11th..the same day as the vote on Mrs May's disastrous deal.

This agreement will make it a criminal offence to speak out against immigration or This agreement.

Many countries are refusing to sign it...will Mrs May sign it? 

[cee-dee]

Seems a bit of a mish-mash to me? Is it "enforceable"? Seems not:-

"The UK Government reaffirmed its support for the GCM in response to a number of Parliamentary Questions in November 2018. It has stressed that the Compact is a “non-legally binding, cooperative framework”, which “reaffirms the sovereign right of States to determine their national migration” policy, while setting out “a better international framework for action and co-operation on migration” It has also referred to important commitments set out in the Compact to tackle human trafficking and people smuggling, the recognition of a State’s right to control its borders, and acknowledgement of States’ responsibility to accept the return of their nationals who no longer have the right to remain elsewhere."

[j_uk643]

non-legally binding

must be a conspiracy by kellogs 

lol

[fallen-archie]

Her is another take on JC this time from the New York Times

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour...

[joe_bloggs*]

---

@j_uk643 wrote:

Generally speaking when one makes assertions, the  burden of  proof is on those making the claims

If they can't it's likely because they have none, or think they are somehow above all that lol

For  example...If one makes a claim a football manager  is dismissed because he won too many games, - pc gone mad etc  etc, no evidence offered, it would seem rather an odd claim to make

Checking the DM etc suggested he wasn't dismissed for that at all

Reserve position....well he was sacked for making inappropriate  comments to a  female player -still pc gorn mad

Check FA website...not true they specifically say  they dismissed that initial  claim,  & he was dismissed for other reasons

Response....well they might have said  that  but  I don't believe it!

cue fake news 

---

Put it so much better than me,cheers !

[baybizz]

>> #169: The UN Global Migration Compact...

This agreement is due to be signed by the U.K. On Dec 11th... the same day as the vote on Mrs May's disastrous deal. This agreement will make it a criminal offence to speak out against immigration...

In this age of "new democracy", you are not allowed to hold an opinion which differs from that of the self-selected "Establishment", which has constant access to the whispering megaphone of the MSM (MainStream Media):

"Ireland Gives the "Wrong" Answer - Will Have to Vote Again...

theguardian.com - eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

~

[fallen-archie]

Another bit of light reading if you can be bothered!

http://journal.quilliaminternational.com/2018/12/06/jews-the-british-labour-party-and-how-we-fell-ou...

[joe_bloggs*]

Poor old Archie nearly broke Google looking for stories to back up his Lie

Best look for some stories about Corbyns time as a Czech spy !

[j_uk643]

 Last link article

The author  seems to suggest he sees the problem as essentially on the left and makes an effort to absolve what he terms center right , which seems to include everyone else

Labours rules specifically mention anti-Semitism , according to C4 ,while Conservative party rules does not mention it specifically even once, and would therefore have to be dealt with under the generic tendency of religious intolerance

The broad thrust of modern and not so modern history suggests intolerance including racial and religious intolerance, is a significant problem on the right
The author seems to ignore this and even suggest it doesn't exist

Those of the Jewish faith in the main indicate a preference for the conservative party recent polling show he claims
The implication is they have rejected Corbyns left
He doesn't put this in any historical context  .There is some indication of a move away from labour from 2010 when it had a Jewish leader as head of party but even at that point there was a significant percentage voting conservative

They are  single point polls 

It does not in itself indicate cause and effect

It reminds me of an old poster who claimed African Americans were racists because they voted overwhelmingly for Obama
They voted overwhelmingly for bill Clinton too, and last time I checked he wasn't African American

Millibands both David and Ed are Jewish. Ed was party leader and had he been elected would arguably have been the first Jewish prime minister ...a Labour prime minister
Disreali came from a Jewish family but was baptised

The author mentions certain cases but fails to provide links or other data to easily identify so we get no source to reference them to judge or know the outcome.He is not saying they aren't investigated he's suggesting it takes too long in his view


The author himself spoke fondly of a man who was sentenced for supporting terrorists

[j_uk643]

1st link article

 Firstly it's an opinion piece 
If you're unsure what that means please look it up

Secondly it's actually by a Sunday Times employee , which is a murdoch owned paper and isn't favourably disposed to labour and worried they may gain power 

The author of that piece references the recent eulogies given at George H W funeral were soaring in their nature and the audience may be identifying more with what he calls Trump the outsider than the Late GHW Bush referencing a piece from wapo 
 I listened to all four eulogies and I'm not a Republican 
Meacham who he is talking about, is a presidential historian with an in-depth view of former WH incumbents 
He has quite a self deprecating sense of humour . His speech was as most are on such occasions, sombre, sometimes amusingly anecdotal and positive 
The other speakers include an ex senator who knew GHW when they were in Congress together and shared his memories of their time 
He was also sharing often amusing anecdotes. An ex Canadian PM also gave a speech as did Bush 43, GHWs son
They were distinctly non political in the sense of not drawing in current politics.In fact Trump had reportedly insisted there should be no adverse mention of him or inference in the slightest, or he would not attend 

The author references Trump as an outsider, and suggests the audience might be more supportive of his views than of the eulogies given to GHW 
 whilst Trump might be an outsider in some senses ....he was previously supportive of chuck shumer, pelosi and the Clinton's believe it or not, and toyed with the idea of trying to run on the democrat ticket till rebuffed. Hes a self claimed billionaire so hardly a conventional  outsider or a populist in his background 

 I don't think a claim of support for Palestinian organisations automatically translates to anti-Semitism , there are those who practice Judaism who express similar views 
The author suggests numerous people would leave the UK if Corbyn was elected. I doubt it would be a tidal wave 

The author mentions elsewhere about the Pittsburgh shootings but makes no reference about the climate and political divisions which helped those who committed the act of terror . He appears more concerned with what he terms Corbyns leftism views than he does over the climate which fostered a person to enter a synagogue and kill 11 people in a brutal act which appears absent from his writings in terms of context

There are those who were members of the Jewish community who expressed grave concerns on Trumps rhetoric in the light of the killing of 11 Jews in morning worship by a gunman only a few months ago, who appears to believe the alt right propaganda about Soros and immigrants and also those who were marching earlier in Charlottesville with anti Semitic slogans who Trump called 'some fine people' 

I don't recall any comparison here in recent history 
He's the new Washington correspondent for the ST and seems to be out of step with American traditions

[j_uk643]

The last Labour government for some supporters was in the 1970s
The last Labour party probably in the 80s 
For some they don't want a conservative mark 2 version though others in the party do because they see it as a career vehicle with little to do with the aspirations of its members , it's their party in their view, not that of the members, as Watson indicated
It's there to serve the sons of Benn, or Kinnock in their dynastic ambitions, probably in due course a Blair , or others seeking the same

At the time of the failed coup I read Watson's timeline 
About 80 90 % of the comments were negative, some calling for his resignation , some regretting they had voted for him in the first instance ...few supporting him
They were not 'trots' as he claimed , blindly following something they didn't understand according to Watson's view at the time
They listed their occupations incl teacher, lecturer doctor, engineer, lawyer 
They wanted a choice and despite the odds JC seemed to offer them that 
No, some within labour want it to be as close to conservatism as possible, others do not 

It's a kind of view within the party that says if the electorate get tired of voting conservative they will default to us easier if we look & sound the same. They aim to 'win'  by default when the electorate  get tired of the  other party

Tribute bands have their place, but essentially playing second fiddle isnt that rewarding 
Having two very similar parties isn't much of a choice nor does it helps democracy

There is a hostility to him specifically about what some see within the party as a loss of their control 

[cee-dee]

I suppose I'd better not refer to JC in case people get the wrong Idea? So Lets have a look at Jeremy Corbyn eh?

Seems he didn't play rugger much or I mighty have met him when our school played his. After school (where he only got 2 E grades) he worked for a very short time at a newspaper most will never have heard of never mind read. (Yep, I have, I lived a few miles from there). After that, what then? Well mostly he's lived off the back of others! That is, he's "worked" where taxpayers of one sort or another paid him!

He "volunteered" for a while and swanned around the world getting the hang of being an "activist" before coming back here and getting involved with the trade unions. He went to the hotbed of activism, the London Polytechnic where he dropped out after a year because of arguments with those "teaching".

He then became a councillor and from then on never looked back........

So, he's been all sorts of "activist" = troublemaker, supports the Palestinians (!!!!), has voted against his own party while pursuing his leftist way and supported Militant (!!!!)  He's supported those blokes who bombed the Israeli embassy and along with Red Ken had links with the IRA, Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams.

He lost a vote of "No confidence" by a large margin but ignored it saying it wasn't constitutionally legitimate.

Hey this sounds like a charming fellow and when he's criticising others, it's surely a case of the pot calling the kettle Black?